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Post by LucBorgia on Jan 30, 2002 12:51:04 GMT -5
Hello all! From reading the posts, it seems that many of us collect kimonos and such. I am fairly new to the world of kimonos, and I find this message board a great place to learn things about Japanese clothing. I have a general question to throw out to everyone. What makes a kimono special to you...that makes you want to go out and buy it no matter what it costs! Is it the workmanship involved in the creation of the piece -- such as shibori, kasuri, elaborate yuzen etc? Or the nature of the design? Is the age or style of the piece a factor? (I admit to having a fondness for Taisho haoris! I love the longer sleeve lengths.) What is your favorite "style" of kimono -- furisode, homongi, etc.? Do some of you collect only one type of kimono? Do you display your kimonos, or do you actually wear them? Personally, furisodes are my favorite kimonos. I love the long sleeves and the bright, happy patterns. I like elaborate yuzen designs, and I tend to buy kimonos on visual appeal. If I like the way it looks, then I want it! Perhaps an overly simple way to evaluate textiles, but if it will be hanging on my wall, then I want to look at something that makes me happy.
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wadasuto@skyblue.ocn.ne.jp
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Post by wadasuto@skyblue.ocn.ne.jp on Feb 1, 2002 4:23:04 GMT -5
:-*Dear LucBorgia Thank you very much for your posting. Your mail made me very happy and wished you could see me nodding when i read your mail. Before we started this business, kimono was just something old and not my style. Honestly, I did not care about kimono that much. My grand mother was teaching kimono making to other women and she was always wearing kimono. I remember her as a graceful woman. She looked very cool when everybody was so hot and sweatting. She was wearing a pin-striped white kimono in summer and looked very cool. She always had good posture. We were surprised to see the variety of kimono and the textile when we started this buisness. Each kimono is so different and unique. Women's kimono are just gorgeous in colors, especially Yuzen. The crafts men seemed not to care how long and how much the work took to finish up the kimono. Also it is very interesting that Men's haori look same from the right side but the lining are so interesting! I imagine the men in old times were showing off their linings and competed the pictures when they get together at teahouse or theaters. I have some friends who enjoy wearing kimono without following the strict rules. They make their own choice(My friends loves wearing men's haori. Whe makes a lovely color with lace and makes her own obi by leather! I agree exactly with you, LucBorgia san. If you find a kimono you like, that is the encounter! Before I started this business, I met one kimono which is not very special. but I felt like the kimono calling me and thought I had to take her home with me. she was a used kimono but I thought she is mine.(You may think I'm crazy!!) I like Taisho period kimono and haori. too! Taisho was a very happy era, many fantastic arts and designs are from that era. Woops It is time to go to the dentist.....I'do not want to but I have to go. Again, I thank you very much for your mail. domo arigatou! Dozo mata site o mitekudasai(we hope you can browse our site often.) See you again, Yuka Wada
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 1, 2002 20:46:25 GMT -5
Lucrezia (?)
The simplest answer I can give you is three-fold. I collect them to (1) wear or use, (2) because I like the artistic quality of the decoration, (3), or because there is something rare or exceptional about the item.
Each piece has its' individual attraction, but occassionally its' possible to hit one or more area at once. Rarely am I successful in all three areas at once.
Recently [this is a story about one that got away], I came across a man's hakama in royal blue with a design of water rills worked in metallic gold thread. It was an eye-full and had previously been used either for the Kabuki stage or some film's costume. It was also the right length for me to wear. This one fit the bill, but it was very pricey.
It was offered with a 'sobatsu' in the same color scheme, but with a different design, as though they would have been worn together. In order to buy the one, I had to get them both (which wasn't entirely a bad idea), but I dithered too long over the price.
On another occasion (this one has a happy ending), I lucked into a silk and hemp 'kamishimo' in plain, unadorn white. I suspect its' pre-Meiji in age, and I paid quite a bit less than I expected.
Currently, I consider over 100 items before I decide on one. It has to suit me to a 'T', or I'll pass on it. [Yuka- and Ichiro-san can attest to that.] My definition of 'special' changes all the time. My tastes are constantly evolving and there is no way for me to predict what will grab me in the future. I suspect it is the same for most of us.
Kiyoaki
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Post by chiiyo on Feb 11, 2002 7:48:51 GMT -5
Hello... what an interesting topic...
I first got interested in kimono...erm... i think about four years ago? (17-4=13...that seems right...) That was when my friend lent me her Clover manga and I got hooked onto the whole "japanese" thing a year before japanese fever caught on in Singapore. I got very interested in all aspects of japan, but especially the more artistic, cultural and historical aspect, more than the more modernistic japan. Naturally, I got interested in kimono. Unfortunately it took me 3 years to find Ichiroya (which is a gift from heaven indeed) and the nice people from it who actually let me ( a poor student with no credit card) to send actual cash through mail to purchase my stuff.
Since we've already established the fact that I'm a poor student with no credit card (and I might add, have to save up for about a year to fork up about US$100), it would probably seem natural that I only have three pieces of kimono: one black nagoya obi, one very colourful embroidered fukuro obi, and one red nagajuban. All from Ichiroya! *smile*
I collect kimono in order to (hopefully) wear them someday. At least, that was my original intention. In the lulls of purchasing when I was still saving up, I grew to love all aspects of kimono, and am now trying to learn as much as possible about it. I admire Kyoaki-san for his extensive knowledge of the kimono. I wish maybe one day I could be like that.
I am also starting to appreciate kimono for their artistic value. I am especially impressed by intricate Sagara stitches and shibori, but find myself attracted to Yuuzen more than anything. One of my favourite items on the site has always been and still is that modern blood red kimono with the shiny chandeliers with the (humongous) $199 tag. I was quite devastated when someone reserved it. The pale purple kimono and obi set with the lovely Heian pictures comes in a close second. Unfortunately that is quite out of my reach ($580 ??!!).
When I first started out, I wanted an oburisode (silly me). I think that was how I found Ichiroya. Now I look more to more sedated Yuuzen kimonos, or kasuri and komon simple kimonos. It occurred to me that by the time I had the money to buy a furisode, I would no longer be young enough to wear it (laugh). Oh, and my favourite furisode(which is also reserved...) is that off-white furisode with the beautiful embriodered red and green peacock. I was also very devastated when that got reserved. And also that lovely Maru Obi with all the peacock feathers which got...sold...
*sniff*
Sorry for the long post. It was such an irresistable topic.
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Post by chiiyo on Feb 11, 2002 7:51:55 GMT -5
Goodness, I just realised why all my P E A C O C K words got edited to peathingy... it's the bad words filter isn't it? *laugh* To think I tried to check to spelling errors twice... silly me...
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Post by bebemochi on Feb 11, 2002 13:44:03 GMT -5
Hello, i really enjoyed reading your different remarks about what kind of kimono you like best. Four years ago I got married to a japanese man and spent some time living in Kyoto with his family, around this time i became interested in kimono. Since then ive tried to learn as much as possible about japanese traditional dress,unfortunately my friends and family are sick of the subject now But thank goodness i found the Ichiroya message board where i can exchange and discuss ideas with others and learn lots of interesting things ;D i cant really call myself a collector of kimono as i only have one silk nagajuban, one childrens nagajuban and a half obi...a strange mix. i think i like rescuing old kimono and looking after them. Sometimes they have interesting stories attached to them. i am especially fond of meisen. wish i had more time to spend browsing ichiroya and message board. got to go. katie yoshida
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Post by LucBorgia on Feb 13, 2002 19:09:52 GMT -5
Hello again, everyone! What interesting replies! I love to hear others stories about how they became interested in kimono. My personal collection consists of three fairly new furisodes, one vintage (? Early Showa -- I'm not sure, just like the design!) homongi, and five Taisho haoris. To Yuki-san: I loved what you said about your grandmother and how graceful she looked in a kimono. I first was attracted to kimono by the colors and the designs, but when I saw others wearing them, well...then I really wanted one! You are very correct about having to have good posture when wearing a kimono. The first time I wore one I was worried that I would not be able to sit down in it! But, after a time, I grew accustomed to the feel of the obi wrapped around my middle and it became very easy to sit and stand. The obi helps to support your back, and it is very comfortable to wear. I am still not quite sure what to do with my sleeves while drinking tea and such -- especially when I'm wearing a furisode! To Mr. Kyoaki -- Like CyberHippy, I too am very impressed by your knowledge of textiles. I hope that you will continue to help us learn more about them with your insightful postings! I too wear and display my kimono and haori. I wear my haoris to work. At first I was afraid to, because I thought I would damage them. But then I decided they weren't any fun if only I saw how lovely they were, so I brought them out of their washi papers to share. Now, everyone asks me about them, how old they are, what the designs mean and other questions. Many of my friends are starting to become interested in kimono now! To CyberHippy -- The first kimono I ever bought was at an anime convention! A dealer had a booth and I was immediately captivated by how lovely a kimono was in person. Up until that time, I had only looked at pictures of kimono, I wanted a kimono for many years, but I was afraid to buy one online without knowing very much about them. Once I actually saw the garments in person, and I was able to touch the silk...well, then I knew I HAD to have one! I am just starting out in my chosen career, so I don't make very much money either. I can sympathize with having to pinch the budget to buy a kimono. Why do I always have to fall in love with the most expensive kimonos? ::wistful sigh:: To Bebemochi -- "Rescusing" kimono is a good way to put it, since so many of them are being chopped up and turned into squares for quilting and so forth. I often sit and stare at my older pieces, wondering about who wore them. Was she young or old? Was it her favorite piece? I love all my kimonos and haoris and I am happy to give them a new home!
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Post by chiiyo on Feb 14, 2002 6:21:20 GMT -5
A lot of my friends (especially the japanese friends) tell me that it is not all that good to buy second-handed kimono, because it has been "owned" before or something to that effect. But I prefer to see it the other way around. Why should I buy an expensive new kimono, with no history, when I could get a regular piece of japan's history with less money? The warmth that comes from an old vintage kimono can never compare with the crisp new colourful kimonos on sale in japan. The designs are all so different too, and even though the new designs are pretty, I can't help but feel that all the new kimonos look the same now.
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Post by bebemochi on Feb 14, 2002 12:07:30 GMT -5
Dear LucBorgia, When wearing furisode and reaching for tea cup etc. with right hand, use your left hand to hold right hand sleeve out of the way. I read that in the days before Japanese people started wearing Western clothing and did everything in kimono they wore a circular cord which they looped over one arm crossed over at the back and then put over other arm which then held both sleeves neatly out of the way. What a good idea!! Strangely my Japanese friends have never heard of such a devise. Might be time for a revival in old style kimono wearing!? The first time i ever felt an overwhelming urge to buy a kimono was when i was going through a pile of 2nd hand kimono and found an old raggedy thing in a plastic bag, it turned out to be a nagajuban and i would have left it except at that moment the sun caught on its weave and i saw that it was elaborately patterned and despite being dirty and crumpled it was definately good quality silk, i thought it must have been so beautiful once. I bought it for just 15 pounds when i got it home i had a good look at it, and found that it had very long furisode sleeves but they had been sewn up. I wondered like you, who had worn it? Maybe she had got married and sewn the sleeves so she could still wear it. Then i took it to a specialist cleaners. Anyway i just couldnt wait for it to come back, when i saw it again it was amazing, its true colur is a lovely golden cream and has such a beautiful lustre. I really love that kimono and often think about its original wearer. I totally agree with Cyberhippy - vintage kimono really are special and extremely rewarding. Bebemochi
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 14, 2002 19:33:11 GMT -5
Bebemochi, In the 'chambara' movies I've seen, it's a single length of cord. It's held in the left hand, draped under the left elbow, across the back and over the right shoulder. Once it's pulled over the shoulder, a flick of the wrist forward and down, throws the available length in an arc that needs to be deftly caught under the right elbow (while extending the right wrist out, and then backward) so the cord can be drawn up into the armpit and recrossed over the back again. Finally it is drawn over the left shoulder and knotted to the first end at the division of the shoulder and the left breast. It restrains the sleeves so they won't fall below the elbows, but doesn't inpair arm motion. Usually women did this when they were working around water (i.e the kitchen and bath), while the men most often used it during sword duels (hence the chambara connection) or strenuous physical labor. It takes some practice to perform adroitly, but it certainly works. Of course in a silk kimono, one wouldn't expect to be doing anything more demanding than drink o-cha. Kiyoaki
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Post by chiiyo on Feb 15, 2002 7:31:22 GMT -5
I've seen another type being worn in the Shinsengumi pictures. Or perhaps it was the same. From what I see normally it restrains the haori. It is also a single cord, evenly distributed at the back of the waist inside the haori, drawn up and crossed over, over the haori over both shoulders and tied loosely at the back. Maybe they could use it later on to tie up their kimono sleeves?
There's also the type that the japanese drummers use. Also in Musashi(Early Tokugawa Era) I read about a dark purple leather thong that was attached on the inside of the kimono sleeve and was supposed to be able to tie up the sleeves. Musashi never did tie up his sleeves, so I wouldn't know how it works.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 15, 2002 18:41:32 GMT -5
Dear Yuriko-chan,
I've come across this notion about 'used' clothing being undesirable before, from the Japanese point of view. Since the Edo Period, the urban population has developed this idea that everything has to be 'up to date' (especially clothing). It even goes as far as weeding out old things every year to stay in fashion.
Don't you fall for it! Certainly, it keeps the wheels of commerce moving, if you automatically build in that sort of demand. The fashion industry seems the same the world around.
However, there is also the rural tradition of frugality, which values everything and recycles anything (especially clothing).Think of 'sashiko', 'kogin', 'sakiori', to name a few recycling techniques that have become craft forms of their own. Of course, if the Japanese didn't dispose of these things, we wouldn't be able to enjoy them at such reasonable prices, would we? Their loss is our gain, as I see it.
The same sort of thing happened in Korea before the Second World War. Japanese collectors scoured the country for Koryo celadon, and Yi porcelain, which the Koreans didn't value highly because it didn't fit in with current tastes. Now the Koreans are regretting their loss.
I see our role as preserving these things until the Japanese learn to see them in the context of a tradition that goes back over a thousand years; not last year's rejects.
Kiyoaki
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Post by chiiyo on Feb 17, 2002 6:32:17 GMT -5
Recently I acquired a japanese kimono magazine. The title of the magazine is something ViVi something (sorry I can't read kanji), and that issue was Wa Suteki Furisode. There were listings of where to buy furisodes and many beautiful photos of furisodes. The only thing is, all of them seem to have cherry blossoms on them! Is it the fashion nowadays? That is one of the reasons I prefer older kimonos. Older kimonos tend to have more interesting themes (like pictures of Heian figures). I agree that we indeed are preserving some piece of history by collecting kimonos.
By the way, the most expensive kimono ensemble (including the obi and obi accessories I think) was 980 000 yen. But it was a very beautiful shibori furisode, with many many different colours. Does having more colours increase the cost of shibori? Because another shibori kimono (only in black and small pataches of other colours) only costs 580 000 yen.
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Post by LucBorgia on Feb 22, 2002 9:28:53 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the suggestions about what to do with those long lovely kimono sleeves. It takes alot of practice to be able to wear a kimono properly! I dress myself up (okay, I try and dress myself -- I'm still struggling to tie an obi properly) and walk around the house to practice, so that I don't look so much like an ignorant foreigner when I'm wearing a kimono. I wouldn't want to embarress the kimono by wearing it improperly.
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Post by Kou Hiko on Mar 8, 2002 5:16:49 GMT -5
Hajimemashite. I'm new to this board and I figured this would be the perfect place to start writing to. My name is Amanda but my nickname is Hiko. I'll go by either name. I've been visting this site for a while now but have never bought anything (I'm too poor... ) I have a rather long story to tell, so get ready . I grew up poor, living on the streets at times, always hungry. Living in such conditions, my lifestyle became poor--I started failing in school, skipped almost everyday and never did homework (yet I always got A's on all my tests ;D) Right from the start I acceled at Japanese, it was the only class I passed in high school and it was only with a C (because I did no homework). My first year I was already in the 2nd year class and by my junior year I had succeded the fourth year. Japanese class was my only escape. Most of the time I would skip school the entire day except for that class. My teacher was like my mother. School was the only time I ate and lunch I spent in her room with the 3rd/4th year class. My teacher noticed my grades were all F's one day and sat down to talk to me. She asked what I wanted to be. At this time I realized how foolish I've been in school and I realized how unfortunate my life was and my dreams and emotions came flooding out of me in the form of tears and sobs. "I want to be like you. I want to teach Japanese." I choked it out barely realizing I said it, not knowing if she heard me. All I could do was callapse and cry in her lap. I guess the main reason was that I knew that I wasted my life away and would never pass high school. She helped me raise my grades until the end of that year and tried finding me a foster family. My dad caused us to become homeless again so I ran away to a friends house where I live now and couldn't be happier. I know it sounds strange but running away was the best thing I could have done for myself. I went to a new school that worked twice as fast as a normal school so that I could actually graduate (and I just did!! but after two senior years ) Now I'm living a safe, normal, happy life, engaged and about to start collage and study to become a Japanese teacher . But that doesn't explain why kimono is special to me. My first year in Japanese class my teacher dressed me in a kimono (or tried to. I later found out that she did it wrong ). A new piece of my loved Japan had been introduced to me. I studied all I could about it and looked everywhere for one of my own. My passion of kimono is purely wearing it. I find any opportunity I can to wear kimono. I regret not having alot of kimono. If I had my way I would throw out all my normal clothes and wear only kimono. I feel so elegant when I wear kimono. It may sound strange, but I feel the only time I am pretty is in kimono, thus I hate my pictures being taken unless I'm dressed in kimono. I like the attention I get, even the weird looks. Like I said, my passion for kimono is purely dress, meaning that I dislike those who cut up kimono. 10/23/01 Wada-san put it perfectly. "They are divided into two totally different groups--kimono admirers and textile admirers. Kimono admirers are angry at textile admirers for they cut kimono into pieces to make dresses or dolls and textile admirers want to strip the kimono from the kimono admirers!" I am a classic case of a kimono admirer, to the extreme. I've gotten to the point of sending hate mail to those who cut up kimono. The only time that is justified is if it is a cheap manufactured polyester kimono, never one of a kind silk kimono. Hanging kimono bothers me too but not nearly as much. I would only consider hanging an uchikake after I used it in my own wedding, even that would be pushing it. My passion for wearing kimono has brought me to spread my knowledge of it. I started by giving kimono presentations to my former Japanese class (and have been with each new year) in which I tell as much about kimono as I can in the class period followed with dressing as many students as I can in traditional way, including at least one boy and one girl. I've been going to other schools to give my presentations and even offer to give individual dressing lessons to those who want to learn more. So far I have had no apprentices . If you would like to learn to wear kimono, contact me. I give my lessons for free. I'm sorry this was such a long post. I had to shorten it because it was too long to post. I just felt it was the best way to express myself. I hope to hear from you all soon.
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Post by Daikan on Mar 10, 2002 4:00:24 GMT -5
Dear Kou_Hiko san
Thank you for your message to our board.( Ichiro is writing--- I am very sorry for not reply soon. Ichiro is not good at English ( Yuka can speak - she had been lived in USA for a year ) so sometimes it is heavy work for me to read and write English. ) I read your story and I like your story. I can not express my feeling exactly in English, but I ----
Yuka will write later ---
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Alan
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Post by Alan on Mar 11, 2002 4:32:49 GMT -5
Hi
My name is Alan and I live in Sunny South Africa.
In my early 20's I worked in a gallery specialising in Oriental antiquities. I am absolutely mad about Asia and have a large collection of Chinese furniture and textiles. In fact, I hardly own any western furniture! The first time I ever saw a kimono, was about 12 years ago. A friend, who is a florist, was commissioned to arrange flowers at Sun City for the visit of Joan Collins. She had two magnificent ushikake (one red and one white embroidered) on antique stands. She incorporated these into a fabulous display of orchids. I was hooked. Unfortunately, kimono is almost impossible to find in SA. Thanks to the internet, I found Ichiro and Yuka. I now own 2 beautiful ushikake which I display on a black lacquered traditional stand. I love the complete over-the-topness of the ushikake. I also love old tomesode with yuzen designs, simply for their understated elegance. My collection is small, but growing. I have even tried wearing hauri. I bought the one with the carp.... It was an instant hit at a black-tie function recently. My designer ran me up a kimono-style black shirt with matching wide trousers to complete the outfit. The local House & Garden magazine (Conde Nast) will soon be publishing a picture of my ushikake. So Ichiro and Yuka, your wonderful kimono are becoming famous here! The South African Rand is so weak against the Dollar, that even at Ichiroya's excellent prices, it is still very expensive for us to buy. Thank heavens for credit cards - "put it on plastic and suffer next month" seems to be my motto when I buy kimono.
Sorry for the long message. It is wonderful to have contact with other kimono fans.
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wadasuto@skyblue.ocn.ne.jp
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Post by wadasuto@skyblue.ocn.ne.jp on Mar 11, 2002 11:11:01 GMT -5
:)Good evening Amanda san. I've read your mail and to be honest I'm very surprised and at the same time very impressed. Your passion towards kimono is so strong and it is exciting to hear that you do the kimono presentation in many places! I agree with you that when you wear kimono, you become different. Your back become straight and the way you walk become very elegant! I think men, too look very nice in kimono. Your story about your school life was like a book. Your Japanese class teacher seems a wonderful person! and youo must have studied very hard to granduate highschool!! Thank you very much for sharing your memories with us. It is amazing, kimono can be worn in any places in the world and let us meet each other like this! (without kimono, we may not have known each other!!) we hope we can add charming old kimono on our site and send them to the new owner. It is so nice that you can teach how to wear kimono to anyone, for we knew there are many people who would like to try wearing kimono but they do not try for wearing kimono needs some technique! hontoni domo arigatou gozaimashita(thank you very much.) oyasuminasai(good night) Yuka Wada
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wadasuto@skyblue.ocn.ne.jp
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Post by wadasuto@skyblue.ocn.ne.jp on Mar 11, 2002 11:27:36 GMT -5
:DDear Alan san. thank you very much for writing about your country and how the kimono are appreciated. It is so exciting to hear the uchikake may be photographed!!! Your uchikake is the luckiest, who traveled the most distance and more over she is going to be photographed! We are sure the craftsman would have felt so proud and grateful if he could have known this. Moreover, I was so excited to hear that you wear that haori with the matching clothing! we wish we could see you in haori someday!! I smiled very much to read your motto about the credit card. it was so interesting, and I will remember that! You cannot imagine how happy we are when we send the kimono packges. South Africa is very far from here but it is so thriled feeling that someone special as you are waiting for the kimono to arrive. Domo arigatou gozaimasu for your wonderful messages. oyasuminasai(good night) Yuka Wada
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akihito89@hotmail.com
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Post by akihito89@hotmail.com on Mar 12, 2002 12:09:19 GMT -5
I agree with you! People should be jailed for cutting up kimonos! Sometimes, I'm online and some catalogs online have strips of uchike fabric . UGGGGH! To make it worse, some not only dismantle shiromuku(s), but they dye them other colors! What Atrocity! Your story is VERY intresting. I agree also that I love to wear kimonos. "My passion of kimono is purely wearing it. I find any opportunity I can to wear kimono. I regret not having alot of kimono. If I had my way I would throw out all my normal clothes and wear only kimono. I feel so elegant when I wear kimono. It may sound strange, but I feel the only time I am pretty is in kimono, thus I hate my pictures being taken unless I'm dressed in kimono. I like the attention I get, even the weird looks. " Every experience would be enhanced by wearing kimonos! C-ya
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