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Post by cyndy01 on Jun 30, 2004 18:07:00 GMT -5
I bought this magnificent kimono at a church rummage sale for less than $2. I was so happy I practically threw the money at them since I'd wanted one for years. But this is puzzling to me since I have seen lots more kimono here than any other website ever and there are more kinds than normally listed. It is unlined and padded at the bottom and it trails which is why I no longer think it is a Tomesode or Kurotomesode. Maybe it's a susohiki. Here are some pictures of it. www.angelfire.com/mo/dawnlynette/kimono.htmlAny help would be greatly appreciated and I would also like to know if I should just put it away. I wouldn't want to ruin it since it seems to only have a single flaw on the shoulder.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Jun 30, 2004 20:30:10 GMT -5
Cindy,
The firmness of the padding in the hem is possibly the key factor here.
Ordinarily, a padded hem is associated with the 'uchikake', which is worn like a loose coat (over the kimono and obi itself), with the hem trailing behind. The weight is intended to keep the hem trailing behind. However your kimono shows the usual separation of the sleeves from the body, which is less typical of the 'uchikake'.
Occasionally, some kimono were lightly padded in their hems if they were intended to be worn when dancing. The firmness helped the dancer to keep the hem clear of her heels. Perhaps there's also a connection with the motif which shows a 'maiko' [apprentice geisha] performing a celebatory dance under blossoming cherry trees.
The black gound color suggests a formal use, but I can't see a sign of the 'mon' or crests on the upper body of the kimono. If it doesn't have a crest it's not likely to be a 'tomosode'.
It's neither likely to be a 'susohiki'. Normally, on the susohiki the decoration carries over onto the interior lining for a good 6 - 12 inches. Since your kimono has no lining, that can't be it either.
In addition, an unlined kimono is meant to worn from early June to late August __ the height of summer. However, the decoration is most appropriate for late winter/early spring (before the cherry trees actually come into bloom). So the decoration doesn't seem to fit with the unlined feature either.
If the kimono was accquired in the fifties as a tourist item, then all bets are off. If so, treat it as a display item and enjoy it.
Kiyoaki
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Post by cyndy01 on Jun 30, 2004 21:46:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. It is a pretty quizical piece. It does have crests. I'll add that picture to the page. It's heavily embroidered and quite intricately in places on top of everything else. At any rate it's gorgeous. I'm going to just enjoy it for what it is I guess. I was just hoping to have a type to know what I was talking about. I'm going to a Japanese Festival this fall at the Seiwa-en Japanese strolling garden and they have kimono dealers there so maybe I can get a definitive answer as to it's age and everything if I bring it along.
I really appreciate all of your help and hopefully I can continue learning about kimono here. This is basically the only Kimono forum that I've ever been able to find on the net.
Cyndy
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Ume
New Member
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Post by Ume on Jul 1, 2004 3:43:56 GMT -5
Hello Ciny01,
Could you take a picture of the inside? Itfs a gorgeous and very special kuro-tomesode. Which doesnft mean it could not be a susohiki, could you take measurements too? The length is very important too decide if itfs a susohiki. It is a hitoe kimono, only to be worn in June and September. In July and August you need to wear ro or sha. Are you sure it is not lined? I ask because I see cherry blossom and that pattern is for very early spring, March early April... A padded hem is not only for dancing, it was also done in the pre-war era, to add elegance and give a nice drape. Most formal pre-war kimono have padded hem. The padded hem is surely very different from the uchikake hem. I can see in the pictures itfs slightly padded, not the huge roll at the hem uchikake have. The crest is a hanabishi, flower diamond. The diamond type of crests was one of the most popular within Japanese heraldic motifs. So, I am sure itfs a kuro tomesode, but to tell more I would need to see the inside and know the measurements. Oh, and itfs just what I think and found, I am no way an expert, I just love kimono and everything that comes with kimono and use all my free time to study kimono.
Greetings, Ume
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Post by cyndy01 on Jul 1, 2004 13:24:49 GMT -5
I've added new pictures. The original picture that you saw was the inside. Now I have added the picture of the outside and some of the embroidery. The kimono is between 67" or 70". I'm terrible at measuring. But I'm thinking its Kuro Tomesode. The maiko dancing on it is pretty big in size as you can see which is really amazing to me by itself. I guess it was a kimono meant to be noticed. There are also five mon on it. I neglected to mention that. Three in back and two in the front of course.
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bawsin
Junior Member
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Post by bawsin on Jul 2, 2004 15:16:28 GMT -5
I believe I have found some variations on the mon (crest) here: www.kyono.co.jp/kamon/1200-4.files/hanabisi.htm(This is a fantastic kamon site, by the way!) Cyndy, have you considered writing to ask Ichiro san about it? This really is a lovely and most unusual tomesode, and it would be so interesting to know what he has to say. Bawsin
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bawsin
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by bawsin on Jul 2, 2004 15:29:58 GMT -5
> I really appreciate all of your help and hopefully I can continue learning about kimono here. This is > basically the only Kimono forum that I've ever been able to find on the net.
The only other one I know of is the Yahoo!Group list called thejapanesekimonoroom, which you can find at <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejapanesekimonoroom/?yguid=103174>. However it's not terribly active, and discussion lately has revolved around where to find good used kimono shops in Japan.
If you want informed discussion about specific kimono, I suspect that this message board is the very best place on the Web.
One other thing, I think you can be certain that your kimono is a kurotomesode. The black colour, the location of the design, and the five crests all point to that conclusion. Although it is odd that it's unlined, given the subject matter. Is there any indication that the garment did originally have a lining that may have been removed later on?
Bawsin
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Post by cyndy01 on Jul 2, 2004 19:48:35 GMT -5
Thank you for pointing me to that list. It's got some interesting photos. I really can't tell if it originally had a lining. I'm not sure of the signs. Thank you very much for your help.
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Ume
New Member
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Post by Ume on Jul 7, 2004 9:59:54 GMT -5
Oh I see now, the bottom of the kimono is lined and has a different pattern. This is also a feature of older (formal) kimono. Judging from the pictures the upper part is not lined I think Bawsin could be very right; maybe there was a lining before. But it doesnft have to be so. I have seen more kimono (for late winter early fall with no upper lining. It is a bit odd, but rules where different before the war and there where even more small nuances that have disappeared now. This type of kimono, kuro tomesode would have been worn with a hiyoku (extra, in this case white, kimono) underneath it. Because it is older there are two ways it could have been worn. One way would be leaving the kimono trailing and the other (more modern) hike the kimono up so you create an ohashori (fold at the waist) As a rule this kimono is very formal and you could not wear it to a party, because the kimono is intended for ceremonies etc. But, you are not in Japan so you could go round the rules and just go on and wear the kimono to parties etc. I saw one woman at the kimono-group tell you tomesode are never seasonal, that you can wear them all year round. This is not true. Well, not completely, there are (modern) tomesode with a non seasonal pattern (cranes, tortoiseshell all season flowers combined etc.) but again before the war even tomesode would be seasonal. Your kimono is very seasonal, a maiko under cherry blossom. So this makes it a kimono for the time just before the cherry blossom come to full bloom. I hope you enjoy this kimono, it is so pretty and lovely, if you wonft wear it you can display the kimono. But only for short periods of time and never in (bright) light, shield it from the sun also; be careful it will not get dusty. Have fun with your treasure!
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bawsin
Junior Member
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Post by bawsin on Jul 7, 2004 12:30:30 GMT -5
> I think Bawsin could be very right; maybe there was a lining before.
The only reason I suggested this is that Cyndy said she obtained the kimono at a rummage sale. Who knows what the previous owner(s) did with it before getting rid of it? Perhaps someone really liked the fabric of the lining, and removed it because they had another use for it. I can easily imagine someone reasoning along these lines: "Oh well, it doesn't matter because no one ever sees the lining anyhow, so removing it won't damage the garment."
But you're right, there are circumstances where a lining may not have been sewn to begin with. A very interesting kimono. If only it could talk!
Bawsin
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Post by cyndy01 on Jul 7, 2004 22:32:07 GMT -5
Thank you all for everything. I think the best thing for me to do considering all suggestions is to display it. I certainly can't wear it. I don't really want to sell it and I just think it's beautiful. Now to figure out where and how to do it considering I have an apartment that gets flooded with light every day. LOL! Thanks a whole lot, everyone!
Cyndy
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Post by Kiyoaki on Jul 9, 2004 20:21:40 GMT -5
Cyndy,
Under "Nuts & Bolts" there are a number of topics that relate to display consideratons for kimono.
Basically, I don't recommend hanging them for long periods of time. They are best preserved by folding for storage and airing twice a year. Perhaps the best compromise is to only display it on special occasions.
Best of luck.
Kiyoaki
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Post by Kiyoaki on Jul 9, 2004 20:49:13 GMT -5
Cyndy,
To further the description, I first have to take back some things. First the 'maku' or tent curtains are decidedly the kind used by the samurai for their bivoack. It even has military crests used as motifs to emphasize the idea.
The large drum is located beneath the flowering cherry blossom on the far side. The hat she wears is reminiscent of the kind worn by male courtiers in the Heian Period. I believe the dance called Sambaso is distinguished by the use of such a hat/cap. The fan in her right hand is for gesturing throughout the dance.
As others have said, season-wise, we're talking early spring, which means the kimon should have a lining. Summer clothes are unlined, which is their sole distinguishing feature from regular wear (aside from the decoration itself).
That's all I can add.
Kiyoaki
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