joval
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Post by joval on Feb 8, 2002 21:42:56 GMT -5
Hello I am quite new to message boards but hope someone can help me find out more about the designs used on fabrics. Especially the pictoral ones . Where do they originate and are there any books or reference material that would explain them? I think the artistry of these fabrics is so superb and no wonder that the artisans are called national treasures.Thank you in advance for any help. What is zuihana?
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AndyZ
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Post by AndyZ on Feb 9, 2002 16:48:04 GMT -5
Hi joval,
If the designs you are interested in include Japanese family crests, I can recommend a book called Japanese Design Motifs, compiled by The Matsuya Piece-Goods Store, translated by Fumie Adachi. It was published by Dover and has 4,260 black and white illustrations. There's not a lot of written information, but I can spent a long time just browsing through all the designs. Hope this is of help. Best wishes AndyZ.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 10, 2002 18:56:42 GMT -5
Dear joval,
I have another work to recommend on the subject of design motifs. It is volume 1, of a series titled "Arts of Japan". The author is Saburo Mizoguchi, the translation is by Louise Allison Cort, and it was published by Weatherhill/Shibundo. It was first issued in 1973, but I have no idea if you can find a copy except through a used book source.
It's a historical survey of design motifs from the Kofun Period down to the end of the Edo period. Although not definitive, it is a good introduction and there are many photos which illustrate how objects were decorated with these motifs.
Happy hunting, Kiyoaki
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joval
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Post by joval on Feb 10, 2002 19:20:25 GMT -5
Hello everyone and thank you for your replies. As usual it is not as simple as it first appears and a lot of research will be needed. As for the word 'zuihana'. Well, I found it on another webste in a list of Japanese words connected to kimono clothing and their interpretation was...an imaginery fotunate flower. So is this part of a myth that anyone knows? It is so easy for someone to offend by using words from another language without quite understanding their meaning or use, so I thought I would ask if anyone could explain this rather nice word. Domo arigatou
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 11, 2002 21:27:32 GMT -5
Dear joval,
'Zuihana' doesn't ring a bell. Perhaps the 'z' might actually be a 's' in a different system of transliteration. Even if the spelling is accurate, unless you know the kanji, there may be no way to determine which flower is intended.
I do know that some of the flowers that are used in decoration are not based upon real botanical examples. Perhaps the description of 'imaginary', which was applied to your 'zuihana' is a similiar case. One classic example of the imaginary flower is the 'hosoge'. It was widely used in Heian decoration, but has no link to any real flower. If it were used today, I don't think anyone could correctly 'name' it, at all.
At the opposite extreme, although a flower that is depicted may be based upon a real one, the rendering can be so abstract as to defy comparison with the real thing. One almost has to memorize the vocabulary of motifs in combination, in order to distinguish the different plants that are employed. It can become a case of identifying something from its' context rather than from the actual detail of the draftmanship.
None of this helps to answer your question, but perhaps you could describe the 'zuihana' more fully (or even up-load a sketch). This may be an instance where a picture would be worth a thousand words.
Kiyoaki
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Post by bebemochi on Feb 14, 2002 12:36:50 GMT -5
How about "The Book of Kimono" by Norio Yamanaka Kodansha 1982. He wrote about crests, might have mentioned Zuihana. Sounds familiar... i'll have a look through my books, havent got "the book of kimono" to hand at the moment. I wonder if it was mentioned in the tales of Genji or one of Liza Dalby's books. I'll have a look and let you know. Bebemochi
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 23, 2002 3:05:09 GMT -5
Dear Joval,
I may have partially cracked the "zuihana" enigma (at least I can shed some light on the matter).
If I'm not mistaken, you were quoting another E-Bay seller that uses the name "yamatoku-classic", and who lives in Kanazawa, Ishikawa Prefecture.
If my guess is correct, the word isn't "zuihana" at all. Because of the seller's regional dialect and the method of transcription used [the same problem I have with my glossary], the "z" sound was most likely supposed to be an "s" sound.
That only gets us a bit nearer to knowing what "suihana" or "suhana" means, but at least one confusion is explained. For all we know, this might be the local name for a motif that is generally known by a different name elsewhere.
Some improvement, huh?
Kiyoaki
P.S. By the way, why don't you repost those internet sites for me and others to check out under the "Bibliography" heading?
P.P.S. Hope I didn't discourage you from making future contributions to the message board. If you haven't done so recently, check out the "Glossary". I've added a number of entries that deal with motifs. I've also thought maybe we should start a similar list of design motifs (though that list would prove an endless task).
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joval
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Post by joval on Feb 23, 2002 6:23:04 GMT -5
Hi Kyoaki No replies for a while as I have beeen busy reading.Thank you for your research, it really does get complicated. I had not thought about regional accents not translating the same. As this was simply a word I was going to use as a pseudonym and I did not want to use a word that was offensive, I sought the meaning. Since no-one knows the meaning it cannot be too offensive so I have gone ahead there. But thanks again. The subject of motifs is fascinating....what are the old ones and what are their relationships and use.etc. Do they come from old tales or myths? Or are they just symbols of good luck, long life and happiness, etc. I will try to find the books I recommended and re-post to the appropriate spot. I have some news on patterns also. I am a painter of silk and I find I cannot get the quality of silk that I see on kimono especially the linings. But I cannot bring myself to cut them up as the quilters do. And how I wish I could reproduce the artwork!!!!!!!! Thank you again Joval
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desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net
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Post by desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net on Feb 24, 2002 15:46:16 GMT -5
Motifs can be frustrating trying to pin down if you're not familiar with the folklore, history, customs, etc. But for all the teeth-grinding you do trying to figure out what's being represented or for what reason, nothing compares to the satisfaction you get when you finally solve the mystery. I recently found a possible source in folklore for one of them found on a tomesode I have, and last night I had to research Hiroshige's Tokkaido station series for the source of another motif on another tomesode. The problem I'm experiencing now is figuring out when these tomesode were worn and by whom. The one I received yesterday depicts a servant of some sorts (he's wearing swords but I hesitate to call him a samurai since I'm not sure) crossing a bridge. There are various stations from the 53 Stations on the Tokkaido Road series by Hiroshige around him. The 1st station in that series (Hoeido edition, according to the website I looked at) is the middle of the Nihonbashi Bridge in Edo; Hiroshige shows a daimyo's procession crossing it in the print so I surmised (correctly, I hope) that the man is part of a daimyo's procession just beginning on their journey, and he's thinking about some of the stations he'll have to go through along the way. Now my question is: when would something like this be worn and by whom? Maybe on New Year's or another occasion marking a new beginning -- it didn't strike me as "wedding" material for some reason, maybe the six-sided dice on the inner lapel had something to do with that! It's rather long (68" I think) but doesn't have a padded hem. dragonneo.com/~desu/servant.jpgdragonneo.com/~desu/station27.jpg
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Post by Kiyoaki on Feb 25, 2002 0:50:25 GMT -5
Jenn,
The figure wearing the swords is a "date-otoko". They were lawless urban dandyies, who had a mixed reputation for loose living as well as championing the urban under dog against official authority.
They dressed flamboyantly in 3/4 length kimono, which had weighted hems. As they walked, their knees kicked their kimono open, which emphasized their swaggering gait. They often wore red 'fundoshi' to great effect that way.
The kimono on the figure has been hiked up to his waist probably to keep the hem clean while on the road. The 'mon' __ besides being too large, as well as being embroidered in gold further marks this style as being excessive. Then too, the sideburns and 'mutton-chop' moustache further confirm his identity.
In modern Japan, the 'yakuza', or gangster element, has tried to co-opt this image to gain greater social acceptance in society, but without much success.
Kiyoaki
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desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net
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Post by desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net on Mar 1, 2002 23:58:36 GMT -5
Wow! Thanks for the information, Kyoaki. Certainly makes more sense than my theory, given the dice on the inside hem.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 2, 2002 14:46:34 GMT -5
Jenn,
After reading your most recent response, I re-read your earlier message and realized I had completely glossed over your questions about who would have worn such a garment.
If you can post some pictures and measurements of the entire piece, perhaps I can be more helpful. The limited views you provided don't show enough of a context to offer further opinions, which is probably why I stuck to just identifying the one figure you featured.
The origin of the term "date+otoko" dates from the Genroku era. By that time, the system of "sankin+kotai" or alternate attendance had been established for all daimyo. That meant most of them had to build a residence in Edo and spend six months there each year.
Often, the wives of both the daimyo and his retainers did not travel with their husbands to Edo. Therefore, the Shogun's government set up and licensed a district where prostitutes lived and worked in Edo, called the Yoshiwara. This was considered a necessary concession to human nature and did not carry the stigma it does today in the West.
Whenever Date Masamune, the daimyo of Sendai [modern Tohoku] went to visit the beauties in the Yoshiwara, he was in the habit of wearing very flamboyant dress. In part, his dress was intended to compliment the ultra-chic fashion of the "oran" [courtesan] in the district, and always caused a stir among the "chonin", who were ever fashion-conscious. Of course, the more respectable element of the merchant class had to reject such flamboyant dress, though they may have secretly wished to copy it. Only the less responsible elements of male society felt free to follow Date's lead.
This style was largely adopted by single men, who made their living through unconventional means. Often they were gamblers, and con-men, who moved through all levels of urban society and flaunted the restraints of authority in both dress and by deed. Ultimately, their group loyalty lay with the urban class, as opposed to the Shogun's government. The kabuki play "Sukeroku" features just one such dandy.
This tradition lingers today in the memory of the Edo+ka. The "yakuza", although they have grown to become the oppressor of the urban class [think of extortion of bank executives and forced loans to gangsters], try to pose as this sort of champion, but it's evident that they don't fit the bill.
Kiyoaki
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desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net
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Post by desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net on Mar 3, 2002 3:00:40 GMT -5
Kyoaki, I'll take those pictures and measurements for you tomorrow. I have to work on my collection pages anyway so this gives me a good excuse to pull my kimono out of storage and spend the day surrounded by silk. Thank you for all the information you have given me so far, it has been really appreciated!
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desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net
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Post by desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net on Mar 3, 2002 19:14:44 GMT -5
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 4, 2002 13:44:37 GMT -5
Dear Jenn, After viewing your files, I have to take back my interpretation regarding the date' otoko figure. The figure is meant to be a samurai, who is heading up a daimyo's procession. The standard he is holding indicates his role. However, if you compare his dress with that of most retainers in Hiroshige's Tokaido series, you can see that his is a very unconventional one. The context strongly suggests a journey, but whether it is just beginning or ending is unknown. The bridge he is crossing could be any number of ones along the route the procession takes. Form + Cosntruction I think we need to first look at the kimono's form and construction. The length and style of sleeves, the length from the shoulders to hem, and the width from cuff-to-cuff all suggests an adult woman. The crests confirm it's a formal nature, despite the obscure theme and decorative motifs employed. However, the continuation of the design onto the inner lapels and up from the hem suggests these areas were meant to be glimpsed. The one garment that would fit both requirements would be an uchikake. You rejected the possibility because the hem had no padding. I don't think this is always necessary for trailing garments. But, perhaps the best indication for such an attribution lies in its' overall design composition. If an obi were worn over the kimono, several significant areas of the exterior design would be covered, and most of the lapel decoration would be hidden. In short, the design would loose its' integrity. Perhaps a close inspection for wear at waist height can put this question to rest. <br> Decoration Regarding the decoration itself, there is no specific time reference indicated for the procession. Maybe the black background was meant to suggest evening, or the hiked kimono hem, the heat of the noonday sun. Without a specific time marker, we can only speculate on this issue. However, the bells and dice, clearly suggest the free-living of the big city in opposition to the conservative and sober life of the provinces. The fact that these are largely hidden in the lining may suggest that such pleasures are not readily available to the uninitiated. The other emblems are meant to depict horse bits, for riding reins. However, they are not correctly drawn, which suggests the designer had no idea what they looked like. I don't know exactly how they tie in with the dice and bells, but perhaps they are meant to indicate a psychological "kicking over the traces" as well. Context We need to also understand when this design would have been appropriate. In other words, we need a context. Was it worn to welcome someone or on the occasion of a departure? In either case, how often would such an occasion arise? Would the significance of only one occasion demanded a custom designed garment? Having said all that, I can only guess that the expense for such a garment was justified by additional wearings. If we focus on who might afford the expense for such a kimono, we may make progress. Ordinary wives would have been too frugal to indulge themselves in such an expense. Even the very rich, would have considered this particular kind of design either undignified or frivolous. They would have stuck to the conventional, even when they could afford to indulge an eccentric taste. That leaves only one likely class of women,__ the geisha. <br>Of all women in Japanese society, they are the most unconventional, the most individualistic. They have the reputation for dressing unconventionally and their greatest business expense is clothing. Admittedly, these facts are not proof, but who else is likely to order such a design? Beyond that attribution, I'm not ready to speculate further. Kiyoaki
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desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net
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Post by desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net on Mar 15, 2002 19:50:40 GMT -5
Kyoaki, Thank you for your thorough reply. I had a feeling it may have perhaps belonged to a geisha due to its length but wasn't sure about that. As always, I look forward to reading what you have to say.
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Fujitsubo
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"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.&qu
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Post by Fujitsubo on Mar 20, 2002 19:49:40 GMT -5
The length of this beautiful kimono and the fact that the design extends so far up the inside lining - susomawashi - are clear indications that this could only have been worn by a geisha. The kimono would have been worn with the front panels folded open, no fold under the obi. Look at your dolls and it will be clear to you.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 21, 2002 13:22:54 GMT -5
Fujitsubo,
Thank you for adding your observation. Joval's dimensions for the kosode didn't seem especially significant, so the extreme length wasn't readily apparent. Also, because I'm a guy, the finer points of women's dressing styles don't spring immediately to mind.
You seem to have solid knowledge and experience about kosode. I want to encourage you to contribute more often to the message board (especially regarding women's topics). I've felt an obligation to respond to all inquires and replies (and not always with the best result). As long as there is another voice out in cyber space that can address female dress, I'll stick to what is familiar.
Kiyoaki
P.S. I assume 'Fujitsubo' is taken from Genji Monogatari.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Apr 15, 2002 15:29:15 GMT -5
Joval,
On a follow-up note....
You may be interested to see a bibliographical listing for a work that deals exclusively with Japanese motifs. It is posted under the "Bibliography" heading (message no. 14, I believe) by Fujitsubo.
I have seen a copy and can endorse it, although the expense may put you off. We have a Rizzoli bookstore where I live, and their retail price is $75. You might get a better price on Amazon.com or some other outlet.
Good luck!
Kiyoaki
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Himiko
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Queen and High-Priestess of Yamatai
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Post by Himiko on Jun 19, 2002 14:33:46 GMT -5
HI! I hope I am posting under the correct category. I have read that women kimono and certain floral motifs fall under seasonal categories. I have one nice light-blue pastel tsukesage kimono with sakura painted on it, and it is supposed to be worn during Spring. I wish I did wear it during the Cherry Blossom season. Read that red and other richer colors are reserved for the winter and New Year's. I just need to know if certain floral motives are distinctly categorized into certain seasons for wearing them. I know certain flowers can be worn throughout the year, without seasonal constraints. I have read some message boards in Japanese sites and they didn't seem to be that helpful.
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