Re: Family crests/ Mon/ Kamon

[Kiyoaki]

Zaphod,

One of the possible reasons for the limited interest in mon identification you've experienced may stem from the difference between kimono collectors and armor afficianados. Armor and military items are much closer to the origins and function of the mon. Clothing is merely an extension of that principle into the civilian realm. Since most of the people, who have a interest in kimono do not have Japanese surnames, the traditional relationship with the crests is broken __ hence the general lack of interest.

In any event, I wouldn't put a great deal of store by the attribution of mon to modern kimono [especially the wedding items like the uchikake from late Showa and Heisei eras]. Often these were rental items for those that didn't want to afford the purchase of a one-time-use item for their weddings. They were given well-known mon purely to complete the look, without any intention to misrepresent prestigious relationships.

Perhaps a more detailed explanation on the mon would help. Please refer to my earlier postings under the heading Kiku-mon:It's history for February 22nd, 25th, & 26th. Some of the opinions I offer may seem to contradict the ones cited in your reference on mon, but I don't think anyone has definitively pinned down the origins and early development of the mon in Japanese culture or tracked its' development conclusively. Before the Kamakura Period there is very little documentary evidence to support a clear theory for the development of the mon.

I trust this helps.

I would also encourage you to follow Lili's suggestion. Perhaps after a few postings, you can stimulate greater interest on this subject.

Kiyoaki

[chiiyo]

Well, that sounds really interesting. What is the website url? I'm constantly trying to find a definitive piece of jewellery for myself, and this sounds like a perfect fit.

Good luck with your results! I am quite interested, especially the mons on those really expensive kimonos, like the padded furisodes and the antiques that are on this site. Sometimes, when looking at the pictures I'll see some really interesting mons. It'll be nice to have that book.

As for my location, I am situated in the sunny (too sunny sometimes) island of Singapore. I hope you know where Singapore is. ... no, it's not in china... I'm nowhere in the league of Kiyoaki-san though, he's the expert around here, though I think I have quite a good base in female clothing. For interests sake, I wish to proclaim that I'm still a high school student, and my first kimono is currently in the mail, which means, no, I've never worn a single kimono in my life. It's a rather momentenous moment, when I finally get my first kimono, I believe, since I've been scouring the net for kimono about two or three years ago.

By the way, Kiyoaki-san, what exactly is your occupation? *blink* You must come by quite a lot of money to be able to buy the stuff you buy...

[Kiyoaki]

Lili & John,

For the record, I live in San Francisco. I finished high school before you were both born so you can guess my age or check my profile. I do recall those days of student penury, but affording luxuries has always been possible when I set my priorities that way. I got my best kimono while I was still in college by working part time while studying. I don't own either a home or a car, so I can afford the things that are most important to me and save as well. It all depends on what's important to oneself.

Kiyoaki

[bebemochi]

I'm interested in finding out the mon belonging to my husbands father's family. The family were farmers without surnames until my husbands great great grandfather became some sort of local leader then his family were given the name 'Yoshida' by... someone...?
I have no idea how the system went.
You might suggest that i actually ask my father to draw the mon and tell me more.
Ahhhhhhh ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!(hysterical laughter)
Do you know how hard it is to get simple information out of my father-in-law.
Lets just say I've been trying for 5 YEARS.

After much harassing, my husband mentioned something vague about 4 swords in a diamond shape and a flower.

I also heard something about women continuing to use their maternal mon. is this true? In which case I'll have to go back to the drawing board and start gently but persistently pestering my MOTHER-in-law for information.

I think it would be quicker to design my own, like you Kiyoaki.

'Yoshida' means 'lucky-rice field' appropriate for a farmer isnt it?
So how exactly do family crests work in Japan?
Can you make them up based on the actual meaning of the name? or is it much, much more complicated than that?

[Kiyoaki]

Bebemochi,

There is no formal institution to oversee the awarding of mon or to police their use. Currently, the only tradition that is followed is the one the wearer wishes to follow.

From my previous postings, you might be aware I take a very liberal attittude regarding the creation of new mon. That was the chonin's way, otherwise, perhaps only 10 percent of the population would be eligible today.

However, if someone wishes to follow that tradition, and provided one has genealogical proof to substantiate their descent from 'so-and-so' [adoptions of sons would break the bloodline, but adoptions of sons-in-law are permissible], then why not?

Even the Imperial line cannot claim 'unbroken' primogeniture given numerous mutiple marriages, adoptions, forced abdications, retirements (voluntary and forced), and even a compromise on alternating lines of succession between a 'Northern' and 'Southern' court in the Ashikaga Period.

Given this morass of confusion and variability, and given the fact we never lived under the system that created and popularized the mon, it is difficult for me to understand why people are determined to seek out and employ an emblem, which they can never prove is theirs in the first place. I think it's more honest to just creat one and go on from there.

Kiyoaki

[Kiki]

Hmmm....maybe someone can help me here, since I haven't been able to find any information about it on the 'net, except in one place. I was interested in what mon the different geisha houses use. Does anyone know anything about this?

Thanks!
~Kiki

[fraise]

Kiki: try this link
www.immortalgeisha.com/ig/faq_geisha.cfm

There's all sorts of good information available on that site, it's one of my favorites.

[Kiyoaki]

Fraise,

I may be wrong, but the six designs shown on the link are emblems more than mon, and not something an individual would wear.

Kiyoaki

[fraise]

Kiyoaki: Kiki asked "what mon the different geisha houses use". The link specifies that they are for "geiko hanamachi", geisha houses.