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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 12, 2002 1:08:26 GMT -5
This is not an entirely new topic, but it's one that can benefit from its' own page. It has been alluded to in several other postings, and Ichiro and I have already exchanged messages on this topic. However, I think it deserves a wider hearing, from which we can all benefit.
To start the discussion, let's outline the major antagonists. Many of us may fall into one of two camps, and some will perhaps vacillate between them both. Whichever side you support, remember, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' were feelings are concerned. Everyone's view is valid for them. The intent of a message board is to express those views for others to think about and comment upon. If we stick to that approach, we can all benefit from this discussion.The Heiki On one hand we have the traditonalists, who find 'wafuku' such a unique expression that they feel it deserves preservation in all its' exisitng forms. Among this group are many, who collect examples for inspiration and enjoyment. Some of these people may develop this interest into a life-long passion, and start systematically collecting and studying the finest examples as expressions of textile art. Others, mostly want to share their interest and make use of their treasures by wearing them in a traditional way. I suspect many of us already fall into one of these categories.
The Genji At the other end of the spectrum, we have the modernists. They are interested in saving what they can from this rich tradition. But their focus is on the practical, and doing what is possible (even when that means changing traditions that don't seem to work any more). Their adherents will take old garments and mix them with Western dress. Others will go further and reuse the fabric in new ways. Still others will go further and deliberately cut up old fabric for reassembly into patchwork quilts. They see this process as revitalizing old traditions, by creating new forms and thereby preserve what would be lost through neglect.
The Court Somewhere in the middle lies a group that is neutral. They are a minority, who are not indifferent to the controversy that swirls about them. They know their voice is not easily heard in the general tumult, but they persist in their own view. Sometimes they side with one great clan; sometimes with the other. Their motives may be generally suspect, even when they have nothing to gain from it.
The Battleground The disparity between these three camps seems to reside in each individual definition of, "What is worth preserving?" and "How is it best preserved?" That is our objective in this campaign of words: Define what needs to be preserved, and enlist the aid of others to support that goal.Abe no Kiyoaki, DainagonSee also several entries that sparked this debate under the heading "What makes a kimono special:". They are dated 2.13, 15 & 3.8, respectively.
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 13, 2002 15:31:01 GMT -5
This is part of an e-mail that was sent to me last October before I investigated the message board. It was sent by Yuka and Ichiro-san, but I believe Yuka was the actual writer. Nevertheless, I believe the comments reflect both of their sentiments."Recently, new age kimono admirers are increasing and the vintage kimono are getting their attention. Some department stores have speciale events of vintage kimono and there are always the crowds of people. They are divided into two totally different groups __ kimono admirers and textile admirers. Kimono admirers are angry at textile admirers for they cut kimono into pieces to make dresses or dolls and textile admirers want to strip the kimono from the kimono admirers!"Ichiro and Yuka Wada My reply follows in the next message.Kiyoaki
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 13, 2002 17:02:13 GMT -5
This is part of my response to the previous message. We were initially discussing a summer kimono I had just purchased, which was similar to another they had sold earlier. I include that portion, because it demonstrates my attitude toward this art, and brings some reality into this discussion."Dear Wada-san,
Thank you for your e-mail regarding my recent purchase. I'll send my IMPO for the full amount on Friday (my time). I trust it will arrive without delay.
I believe you had a similar kimono a month past. It also had a motif of white heron, but the background was black instead of the blue/purple. I liked that one very much, but it sold almost the first day it was posted. The black-and-white constrast made for a dramatic look. The blue one is in better condition (the black one had a few small stains), and will be displayed on a kicho frame as a curtain, SO IT WON"T BE DISASSEMBLED."A 'kicho' is a stand for hanging drapery. They were used as privacy screens in large Heian period rooms. I like them better than the usual racks for displaying kimono because the vertical supports are close together, and the base is only a foot wide, although still bulky.THE RECYCLING QUESTION The letter you sent, which describes the auction process in Japan, was very informative. I don't understand the antagonism between the recycling and the collecting interests. After all, Japanese often recycle old material as lining for new garments, and patch worn out items as well. I'm certain some collectors even favor these "recycled" garments over pristine ones. Perhaps, it's a question of urban taste versus rural practicality, which can never be resolved. I am one of those people, who like kimono both as textiles and as finished garments. When the design is woven into the fabric, or if it's printed, I think it's legitimate to recycle the cloth [as long as the entire "repeat" is preserved]. However, when the decoration is free-form, and obviously placed to reflect its' appearance on a finished garment, then it should be left in tact. It primarily depends upon the decorative techniques that are used, the placement of the motif on the garment, and its' overall condition. Obviously, cost also plays a part. Although most obi and many uchikake would be "suitable" for recycling [if we agree with my criterion], current market values make them unlikely sources for the quilt makers and dress designers. Only poor condition can make a garment suitable for recycling, and new material is usually too expensive to cut up (unless the fiber is synthetic). The han-haba obi, for instance, can be adapted for wrapping other items. I've seen them used as sword bags, and they can be turned into fukusa, or decorative "throw" pillows nearly 18" square. They are also traditionally used for wrapping ceramics [cha-ire] and whatever the imagination might conceive. The only limit might be in the matching of motifs to use, with consideration given to appropriate scale."[/b] From that point onward, I started to describe the different types of things I collect and where my interests lie. None of that is germane to the topic under consideration though.Kiyoaki
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Post by chiiyo on Mar 13, 2002 23:19:40 GMT -5
I don't know which stand I'm on, but the only thing that irks me is the usage of kimono materials to make modern clothing. Like T-shirts, or dresses. If one disassembles kimono to make another kimono (like a worker's kimono, or change a maru obi to a hanhaba obi), then it is okay with me.
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Post by Kou Hiko on Mar 14, 2002 4:20:15 GMT -5
I think I clearly expressed my view on kimono in my first post under the title "What makes a kimono special" and I think this is a perfect opportunity to express myself further (thanks, Kyoaki-san! ;D) I am VERY much under the Heiki camp in that I am against the cutting up of all kimono (except for the cheap polyester machine made kimono. I make little kimono for dolls in my spare time, and I know that I've seen another woman who does the same on the internet. The only difference is that she uses old kimono and I use old polyester shirts from the 70's that resemble kimono fabric. So what's the difference? We're both cutting up old clothes that hardly anybody wears anymore, so what's the harm? The difference is that the shirts came in bundles of the same exact shirt and the kimono was created to be one-of-a-kind by a single person. Something that took so much effort and time should not be cut up and used for petty hobbie or profit. If it's so old and tattered, display it in a musium. If it's stained, wash it (or give it to me, I'll wear it ). Just don't cut it up. If I created kimono and you were to buy it, vintage or not, I would die if I discovered the work that I put into it had all been for not. I'm still getting over the idea that kimono are hung on the walls of people's houses or obi are cut and tied and used as wall hanging or table runners. If you have a good reason for these actions, I am willing to hear it and maybe I'll change my mind on that issue (though not likely). On a side note: I'd like to thank those who read my REALLY long post under "What Makes a Kimono Special". It means alot to me. I'm sad that I couldn't post everything I wanted to say, but oh well. I really want my life to be an insperation for those going down a similar path. (My teacher thinks I should write a book about my life .) As for CyberHappy: I think you fit under "The Court", but Kyoaki would know better than I would. You could be in the middle and help us opposing sides somewhat see eye-to-eye, or perhaps you could totally evolve to become one of the Heiki or Genji depending on where your views take you. This is going to be interesting, ne?
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akihito89
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Post by akihito89 on Mar 14, 2002 7:38:38 GMT -5
Here's how I see it. People shouldn't cut up kimonos! That's like burning an AMerican flag. It doesn't go well with me. I think people who sell strips of murdered kimono fabric, should be social outcaste!
That MIGHT be a little bit strong, but I got my point across. (I hope)
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 14, 2002 16:08:39 GMT -5
Here's another thing to think about.....there is a tradition of creating shima-cho or sample albums of cotton cloth. You may want to read the heading "Shima-cho" for a few preliminary comments.
When weaving was still a domestic chore, the women would make all the fabric for their families. Each woman would save patches of these fabrics as references for when they had to weave new material to replace old or worn out clothes. Over time, these were passed on to the next generation as a guide to what had gone before.
These samples are mostly cotton striped fabrics, typically in indigo and white, which are the easiest to weave. A generation ago, they were ignored as anachronisms of a bygone time, but now they are seen as important cultural artifacts and collected for aesthetic pleasure.
Orignally these samples were saved so they could be rewoven to replace worn out clothing. It's inevitable that clothes wear out and need to be replaced. If a weaver knows and plans for this outcome, then why shouldn't we?
Are we trying to save everything that was ever made?
If a garment is torn or the design is ruined by stains, what should be done with it?
I say it should be preserved as best as anyone is able to do. If a part is damaged, missing, or ruined by stains and no one will wear it, what good does it serve to put it away? I'd rather find a new life for it by turning it into a noren or fukusa, or whatever seems sensible to me.
If others use the fabric for dolls, __ I wouldn't argue with that point of view either. Obviously, if they are doing the work sensitively, they will preserve fabrics with small scale designs, so nothing is reallly lost. In a sense, they are also creating new, miniature versions of kimono as well.
Even in patchwork quilts, a senstive artist will try to preserve the pattern. Otherwise the result will never be good. I have to assume, with the resurgence of quilting as a craft, that no one appreciates good fabric as much as quilters do. Can their ideas be so wrong?
On the flip-side, had you ever considered that people who like (and collect) retro polyester shirts may think you're the enemy? As for those who use obi and kimono for decorating, they are just following an old Japanese tradition.
In the Muromachi period, the bushi class were so eager to show off their new style of dress (as distinct from court dress), that they commissioned byobu (folding screens) of clothing airing out on racks. The name for this type of screen was called "tagasode" [literally "Who's sleeves?"].
I can't see where hanging them in modern rooms is so much different in its' effect. The only criticism I'd make, is that a permanent display ruins the garment. First: The colors will fade with exposure to sunlight (or the white areas will oxidize and darken). No matter how protected you may think the garment is, if you can see it, then light is getting to it. If you can't, then there is no point in displaying it either.
My second point: Prolonged hanging will put continual stress on the shoulders. Over time the silk will start to seperate and shred. That doesn't serve anyone's interest. Mostly, the kimono should be hung like that for short periods of time (days not weeks or years). Leaving obi out only turns them into dust collectors. Over time, grime will defeat your intent.
The solution, ___ display these items for special occasions only. Otherwise, store them properly.
So are we still at cross purposes after all is said and done?
Kiyoaki
P.S. Museums want rare examples in their original condition (if that's possible). All these tatters and stains were not part of the original design, so why should they want them if we don't?
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Alan
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Post by Alan on Mar 15, 2002 3:02:31 GMT -5
Hi all.
I am quite new to the world of kimono, but I have owned a few old Chinese robes for a number of years. (They are almost all in worse condition than the kimono I have.) I display my ushikake, kimono and hauri (and Chinese robes) on traditional design kimono stands that I had copied for the purpose. To me, kimono is art. Art you can wear, but art nevertheless and therefore I love displaying them. They are only taken out when I have guests, and then only one or at most two at a time. Almost like the scroll in the tokonoma. I also never display two in the same area, for instance, I’ll set up a stand with an ushikake in the lounge/dining room and a kimono or hauri in the bedroom. As a man, I’m sure I would look quite odd trying to wear furisode (!), but by displaying it, I am able to enjoy it’s beauty. I do have some pieces of kimono as well. Years ago when I was employed by an Oriental antiquities dealer (I now work for myself in the same field), I came across a magnificently embroidered kimono. The detail was unbelievable, but unfortunately it had suffered severe neglect and the back was completely ruined by water stains. Keeping it as is would have served no purpose. I saved what I could and I had the pieces framed and I am happy to say that 10 years later I still enjoy them. Had I not salvaged the parts that were usable, it would probably have been put away and never enjoyed. I feel that by saving parts of an otherwise ruined item, one is in fact paying homage to the artist who originally created the item and giving it a new life. By the same token, cutting up perfectly good kimono is inexcusable. I can understand, and in fact I would encourage the cutting up of kimono or any other item, provided it can no longer be used for the purpose for which it was made. In the case of kimono and Chinese embroidered robes, it would be best to keep the item as intact as possible, but it is better to save parts of it if it is beyond repair, than to hide it in a cupboard where it would bring joy to no-one. In fact, a local “conservationist” uses new kimono fabrics and old unusable kimono to make beautiful screens by sewing the back or front of the kimono onto silk and mounting it. She only uses new kimono fabrics or very badly damaged old ones. By displaying kimono in this way, we not only end up enjoying them, but especially in a far-away country like South Africa, we create awareness of this exquisite art form. In the end, I feel that each item should be judged on it’s own merit and if it is no longer able to function as a garment, whereby it will merely lie in a drawer, the best secondary use should be made of it. We owe that much to the person who created it in the first place. I personally would not mind a kimono being even heavily stained if the design is breathtaking and the workmanship exquisite. I have a pink furisode dating back to Meiji (I think). It is very faded, stained and torn in places, but the uzen is so beautiful and delicate that I would rate it as one of my most prized possessions. Cut it up? No way!
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akihito89
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Post by akihito89 on Mar 15, 2002 9:16:31 GMT -5
water stains can't be too bad. (I guess.) I have a shiromuku that had been wet and had water stains pretty much all over it. I took it and washed it in my tub and then put it in the washing machine. I set it on spin cycle to spin the extra water out. It dried overnight and now has no water stains.
P.S. The stuff I did at home is experimental and what worked for me may not work on older kimonos.
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akihito89
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Post by akihito89 on Mar 15, 2002 12:59:45 GMT -5
I'm drawing my line right here, right now. I am a great general in the Heiki forces! I'll never surrender! I'll fight to the death!
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 15, 2002 13:49:04 GMT -5
Akihito89,
His August Majesty, who dwells beyond the triple barrier, has commissioned you to quell the unruly forces that have risen to challenge our ancient ways, to restore wafuku to its' rightful place, and to resist all who would tamper with these traditions. May your strength and talents serve you well in this campaign.
In token of past services, you have been promoted to the 5th rank, junior grade and appointed Govenor of Harima. You have been further honored by adoption into the Taira clan. You will henceforth be known as 'Taira no Tametori' and have the rank of an army general. As such, you are now permitted to enter the august prescence of his Majesty, and are authorized to raise a force of loyal supporters to contend against our enemy.
Ansei 3, 1st month Abe no Kiyoaki, Dainagon Prime Minister to his Majesty, Antoku Tenno
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 15, 2002 14:14:20 GMT -5
Aran,
By the grace of his Majesty, who lives beyond the triple barrier, you have been appointed to the post of Commander of the Left, in the Palace Guards. Your rank has been raised to that of senior, 5th rank, and a stipend from certain manors in the Uji Distirict plus the labor of 1,000 households in the Home Provinces has been assigned to maintain your dignity in this new postion.
You are charged with the security and safety of the Imperial Household, and are to work in concert with your senior, The Commander of the Right. You are also awarded a seat at the State Council, with the title of 'Shonagon', or Minor Councilor.
Ansei 3, 1st month Abe no Kiyoaki, Dainagon
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 15, 2002 15:20:18 GMT -5
Lady Kou Hiko,
His August majesty, who dwells in the Nine-fold Enclosure, bids you join the suite of his mother, the Dowager Empress Akiko, as her Lady-in-Waiting. Your talents are well-known and in recognition of them, you are appointed Keeper of the Empresses Wardrobe, and Superintendent of the Dye Works.
Ansei 3, 1st month Abe no Kiyoaki, Dainagon
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Post by Kiyoaki on Mar 15, 2002 16:15:11 GMT -5
Sophia,
You have found favor in the sight of His August Majesty, who lives beyond the clouds. He desires you join his household as one of his Ladies-in-Waiting. Your good sense and tact recommend you, far beyond the influences of family, station, or friends.
As long as you serve Him faithfully, Our Majesty will provide for your welfare. When He has come-of-age, you will be provided suitable property to sustain your own establishment if you desire to do so. We trust that you will not then forsake your duties entirely, but will continue in His Majesty's sevice until he is wed.
Ansei 3, 1st month Abe no Kiyoaki Dainagon
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desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net
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Post by desu@NOSPAMstarstream.net on Mar 15, 2002 19:45:05 GMT -5
I suppose I'm a fence sitter since I see the value in both keeping kimono intact as well as recycling them. You can bet that I'd be hard pressed to take scissors to an old Taisho chirimen kimono, but on the other hand I have no compulsion about snipping up a more modern tsukesage with holes in it and stains that won't come out. I guess for me it's more a matter of age, condition and scarcity. With each garment I buy, I spend a lot of time asking myself about what the purpose the garment in question will serve; if it's going to be a part of my collection, what niche will it fill? Will it be a fine example of yuzen? A special design like that samurai crossing the bridge? Shibori? Taisho period? Meiji period? Cutting these textiles up isn't something I relish so when I do decide to reuse something, it's a decision I've put a lot of thought behind. There have been kimono I've bought strictly for the purposes of reusing simply because I felt they, even though stained and full of holes in one guise, would better serve as ambassadors of the elegance of kimono design in another guise. While I agree that every garment is unique and should be cherished as such, I think there comes a point where we have to ask ourselves if a particular garment might serve a more useful purpose in another form. Something else to note is that some of the more highly sought-after textiles are made from recycled garments; sakiori weave obi, for example, or kesa. There's even that silk yogi up for sale now here. They are still beautiful garments even though they are made from the remains of something else. Perhaps, then, it might be best to think of recycled kimono, not as sacrilege, but as a phoenix rising from the ashes?
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Post by chiiyo on Mar 16, 2002 8:34:43 GMT -5
Ano... kore Sophia wa...atashi desho ka? *mutters...how did he know my other nickname...never used it here...*
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Post by Kou Hiko on Mar 18, 2002 3:05:12 GMT -5
(This is a bit delayed, I've been busy...) Well, Akihito, it looks like it's you and me against the world. We must convert them to see it our way (playfully). Any good arguements? This will sound very childish, and I know it is, but I'll say it anyway (and I think Akihito will agree with me. When I see a kimono, I immediately want it and I thus get in the mind set that it should belong to me and only me (and that's why I get mad to see "sold" on Ichiroya This is just because I'm greedy. Even though I would like every single kimono in existance to belong to me ;D I'd also like to see others wear it as well, especially as an alternative to cutting it up or displaying it. I think that that is cruel because I know that I could put it to much more use. Even the ones that are to bad to wear, like Akihito and his shiromuku, I'll clean it or patch it into a katami-gawari (half the body different), and if there is mo hope for wearing it, I'll use it as an example in my kimono lessons on the techneque it was made with or use it as an example of what happens if kimono are not properly cared for. I see these as very practical uses. Even if a kimono is ruined, I still wear it. This may seem silly, but no one really notices that it's damaged, only that I'm keeping a tradition alive. I have a nice kasuri kimono with large water stains all over it. No one notices, and in fact, think that it's part of the design. And my favorite kimono, a kofurisode with tomesode-like design, has a blood stain on the knee, a little grey on the bottom from dust, and pink rouge on both elbows, and a little stain on the collar, yet I still wear it wonderfully. I got it for $20 because the owner thought it couldn't be worn again. My point is, anything can be salvaged, in my opinion. Holes? Patch them to look like part of the design or if it's not too bad, leave it as it is or sew it closed. I've done it before. Stained? Leave as is or clean it. Faded? Who cares? I'll wear just about anything. As for those confused about where they stand: in my opinion, if you cut kimono for more "practical" reasons, you are Genji and therefore on the enemy's side (just roleplaying, you're not really my enemies ;D This is just how Hiko, the Empress Akiko's Lady-in-Waiting would feel. I love roleplaying) ;D Ja ne! And thanks Kyoaki for this "RPG"
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akihito89
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Post by akihito89 on Mar 18, 2002 10:25:24 GMT -5
Genji,
Prepare to meet your end! I come with my sword drawn and my banners waving! My Imperial army is thirsty for your blood! My sword is whet for battle! I willl never surrender! My Imperial army is more organized and professionally trained. You (Genji) are poorly organized are not ready for the wrath I have in store for you.
Come behold my fury.
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Post by Kou Hiko on Mar 20, 2002 3:08:49 GMT -5
I would like to know what the Genji (or anyone else) would consider a kimono too damaged to wear. When does a kimono become unsalvagable?
For me it takes ALOT of damage in order to be worthy of not wearing it. I saw a white uchikake today that had HUGE water stains on it at the bottoms of the sleeves, on the trail, and on several other parts. These spots where probably about a foot big. But I didn't consider it worthless or unworthy of wearing. My first impression was that they were brown clouds, a common design. The only reason I knew they were water stains was from the discription.
I've also seen a large full length dress made from a furisode at a store in Seattle. The woman who made it told me that the kimono had a stain on it and could not be worn. I took a good look at the dress and measured out to what was the amount of fabric used on a kimono. This stain that she claims the furisode had must have been really small and near a seem or on the inside lining of the kimono because there is no way that dress could have been made using as much fabric as it did with a stain marking the kimono as unwearable.
What do you consider a kimono being unwearable that it is "worthy" of being cut up?
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akihito89
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Post by akihito89 on Mar 20, 2002 10:27:38 GMT -5
What's the address for the site with the water-stained kimono? I had water stains on a shiromuku, and (like I said before) got them out by washing the kimono and spinning out the extra water.
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