A 2nd Gempei War: Save or Cut-up Kimonos?

[Kiyoaki]

Ko-Shonagon,

[Please see reply #16 above for context]

As to when something is too far gone to be worn, the usual practice [in Heian times] was to pass on garments to one's servants when they were no longer presentable. The servants then decided how to make the best use out of their gifts. That is probably where the idea for the 'katami-gawari' originated.

Of course, most of these robes were single colored, and whether they had a damask pattern or not did not interfere with their subsequent recycling. Also, the garments for servants were more abbreviated than that of their masters, so reducing the size made conversion a realistic alternative.

I don't think anyone would argue with that kind of recycling. After all, a discarded garment is remade into another garment that extends the life of the fabric [although some of it may be sacrificed or appear in another guise].

It wasn't until the Muromachi Period that large-scale pattern dying became the vogue. From that point onward, dismembering a garment meant also altering the design composition as well. I think we are all in agreement about preserving that sort of garment. But a wide spectrum of possibility lies between the ones with grand-scale designs and those with only small-scale, woven designs.

For example, some of the Meiji and Taisho era garments can be successfully converted into women's skirts because all the decoration is confined to the hem. Only the 'mon' decorate the upper part of the garment. I'm not advocating this procedure, but if it means more people can see and wear that style, then some good can result from a conversion.

We need to admit to ourselves, our point of view is not always the most practical. For someone, who may find wafuku attractive, the idea and expense of all the accessories can be insurmountable. Even when cost is not the main issue, the process of learning how to dress can prove just as daunting. This is a recurring problem as some have attested to on this board.

Some of these potential converts might eventually have graduated to wearing a full kimono, but if there is no alternative, no middle path, then that possibility doesn't exist. I am only suggesting that altering a kimono may not be entirely undesirable. Instead it may prove to be a useful means to accustom people to the full-fledged kosode and obi outfit. If this exception means more tomesode are bought into the light of day [rather than passing their existence in bales], I think that's good overall. I believe Ichiro and Yuka-san would agree.

Abe no Kiyoaki

P.S.ON a further note, Sophia, you may be interested in a site I found that focuses on Heian Period re-enactments. The address is"www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/guide.htm". The site is not complete, but there are some interesting things there.

[LucBorgia]

    Hello all!  Goodness...haven't posted in quite some time, as things have been busy at work.  But it looks like there have been plenty of lively discussions going on around here.  ::peeks around::

    I think I'm more of a kimono saver than a kimono slicer.  For example, I have a lovely purple Taisho kimono thatI wear all the time when I'm at home relaxing.  It's a bit short on me to be worn as a proper kimono should be, and there are numerous spots and stains on the silk.  Not something I'd want to wear in public, but it's lovely all the same.  

    Cutting up kimonos and turning them into quilt squares is depressing to me.  They deserve a better fate than that!  Although, I wouldn't cry foul if someone took a maru obi and turned it into a hanhaba obi and so forth.  That seems a bit more respectful.

    I once contemplated making a "ready-to-wear" obi out of a fukuro obi that I have, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it.  I decided to be patient and learn how to tie the obi properly, instead of taking the easy way out.    

    On the other hand -- and no one shoot me please -- if one has an old kimono that has many numerous stains and tears in it, then I feel it should be salvaged somehow, even if that means cutting it up.  Some holes just can't be patched and some stains won't come out.  But, it would have to be REALLY damaged before I would consider it.

    I prefer to keep my kimonos and haoris in one piece.

[Kou Hiko]

How stained is the taisho kimono? I mentioned before several kimono that I would still wear in public despite the condition. I suppose everyone is different in what they would be willing to subject themselves to in puplic. Me, I would flaunt myself. There are many things you can do to make a damaged kimono look good.

As for the length, it doesn't matter if it's a little short. Most of my kimono are old as well and cut short for me as well (I'm 5'2", kimono normally fit me very well). Most modern manufactured kimono are cut short so that you don't need to tuck it under. In the book The Story of the Kimono, Jill Liddel talks about these kimono and says that it gets rid of the unsightly fold. I totally disagree. I think that that fold makes the kimono look so much better.  But the point is, it's okay to wear a short kimono, as long as it doesn't go above the ankles.

And I'm glad that you feel that way about not cutting up kimono. I was surfing today and I don't remember the site, but they sell cut up kimono fabric (i think the biggest pieces were 17") from BRAND NEW FURISODE! I was so angry. And I think they did wholesale. The thought of the making of the kimono and making sure the designs matched up at the seams to make a wonderful garment, cut up before it could be worn.

Again, you could try cleaning your kimono to get rid of the stains, but I wouldn't suggest it. I understand that you love that kimono and cleaning it could be potentially worst for it. I would never clean any of my favorite kimono and you shouldn't either. Cherish it the way it is, because it's all the more special that it is loved by you despite the condition it is in.
(You go girl! )

I still believe almost all kimono can be patched up. In the book The Story of the Kimono there is a picture of a katami gawari kimono that has half green with tiny flowers and half yellow with fans that is entirely made of patches. I belive that you could find a fabric that would compliment the original damaged kimono well and patch it over the cuts and wholes and make it look as if it were done on purpose. But this is just my opinion.

Akihito, what about you? What would you consider a kimono being too damaged to wear?

Anyway, I'm going to a flea market saturday in hopes of finding kimono I can haggle over and I'm considering wearing my stained kasuri kimono, or a yellow komon kimono with a blood stain on the foot area. (The only reason I mention the stains is to illustrate that damaged kimono are still wearable.)

[Kiyoaki]

Despite all the opinions that have been expressed here, I think we have ignored a critical element in this discussion. Essentially, there are perhaps two general types of fabric that are used in kimono. I suggest we consider each of these separately, because the production process for each differs so greatly. In that difference may lie the border between what is acceptable to cut up and what is not.

Woven Goods

1] Plain weaves - We've all encountered this kind of fabric primarily in the lining of the kimono. I don't think many would have a problem with replacing a lining that was badly stained, torn, or otherwise damaged. Whether white or colored __ the change would hardly affect the original garment. Of course whether to change the lining or not would depend on how much trouble would be incurred.

Included in this category are the woven stripes and plaids. These are customarily made in weights that are appropriate for outer wear. They most often show up as informal, everyday wear. This is one type that doesn't suffer from conversion. Even if reduced to a single repeat, I don't see the problem, unless the fiber was especially rare [i.e. bashofu/banana fiber]. People who collect this kind of fabric are happy to get swatches when they can. Certainly they would all like to have the full scale example, but in light of storage problems, should they be denied their patch?

2] Fancy weaves - In the damask (rinzu) category there two types. The light weight ones are meant for lining material, and the heavier ones meant for outer wear. Whether the thread is dyed before it is woven or the finished fabric is dyed to suit the garment, basically we have goods that need not be used exclusively for kimono. This is the very kind of fabric that was most often used in Heian court dress and passed on to servants as rewards for special services. I still don't see a problem with this type of fabric being re-worked as a new garment or just incidental wrapping for special objects.

A second sub-type in this category is kasuri. Largely, the designs woven using this technique are either moderately scaled (not often exceeding 1 foot square), or a geometric repeat. Most often these are woven in cotton, but most sellers focus on the silk examples. In the cotton examples, I could tolerate defects, because these will probably never be worn in public. As for cutting them up, well I'll admit I've done so in the past. After all, what's a guy to do when the great majority of garments are styled for women? Either I don't buy them, or I convert them to something I can use. I've made futon covers out of old kasuri kimono, which I feel is better than neglecting them altogether.

The third sub-type are the brocades. Actually there is no such noun. 'Brocade' is a verb, and not a weaving technique. It has general acceptance, but technically 'compound' weaves are intended when people speak of brocades. What makes a weave 'compound' is the integration of additional threads beside the warps and wefts, into the structure of the fabric. The design on these fabrics can be very large-scaled or small repeats. In either case, as long as the repeat is preserved, I still don't see any harm.

In the Shoso-in, a temple respository from the Nara Period (8th century) exists a fragment of brocade with a 3-foot wide repeat. No one knows what purpose was intended for the original fabric, but eventually, it was turned into a cloth case for a lute (biwa). If this had not happened, would any of us realize how advanced 8th cenutry textiles could be? As in this singular case, conversion, sometimes proves to be a plus. That is the most likely way any tradition is preserved __ always in bit and pieces. As far as I see, if it's done intentionally, all the better. The farther back we go in the kosode's history, the less likely anyone of us will find entire garments. Even for Momoyama examples, some types often exist only in fragments [i.e. tsujigahana].

[Continued in next reply]...........Kiyoaki

[Kiyoaki]

Decorated Goods

This is the largest category of interest. The number of techniques that have been devised to decorate kimono goes far beyond dying alone. All sorts of decorative methods have been tried on fabric. Some of them were lifted from non-textile crafts (lacquering) and have been applied with varying degrees of success. For our purposes, only three major techniques count. Please bear in mind, although I may not object to dismembering one kind of garment or another, that does not mean I endorse the practice either.

1] Katazome - Today, this is a stencil resist dying technique, which is largely used to decorate cotton fabrics. This is perhaps the closest the Japanese ever came to a pre-industrial form of mass production technique for fabrics. In its' simplest form, this technique produces a single color graphic image either with positive or the negative motifs. At its' most elaborate, it can rival our next category.

Whether done in a single or multiple colors, again the motifs are relatively small. Most handmade stencils are proportioned to the traditional width of woven cloth (tanmono). The repeats rarely exceed twice the fabric width. Whether on silk or cotton, I feel the scale of the repeat decides the recycle issue. If something is reduced below that proportion, I'd object because the original design is lost. Otherwise, I say it's okay.

2] Yuzenzome - This one category, which includes tsutsugaki, generates the most controversy. The design compostition often takes the entire figure into account. Decoration is no afterthought in such a case. I can largely agree such a compostion should not be sacrificed if at all possible. However, everyone will have their own idea of what constitutes 'possible', so further explanation seems necessary.

I've already noted above, that many tomesode have all the decoration confined to the hem of the kimono and that I don't have objections to people converting these into skirts, as long as the entire composition remains untouched. The tsukesage is a similar type to the tomesode in its' decoration layout. Except for the isolated motifs on the sleeves you have a repeat of the tomosode example. Making use of the sleeves in the remodeled garment may be problematic, but often the secondary treament the sleeves received in the first place is the cause for not reusing the fabric more than any other reason.

Furisode are a unique type because so much attention is given to the sleeves. Whether it is worn with an obi or draped as a uchikake the decoration of the sleeves often make those garments immune to the quilter's art. However, I have seen Meiji examples that used small-scale brocades. These I don't find especially worthwhile for preservation. If the garment is much too big for the scale of the decorative design, perhaps it had best be emloyed in another way? I may be alone in that opinion, but it's a moot point because I'd never have a desire to own one from the first.

Susohiki are practically 'untouchable' in my book. Not only do they represent sophisticated taste, but often the decoration runs in a continuous composition onto the inner lining. How could any alteration be made without destroying the integrity of the garment? Conversely, it could be said that only if it is worn trailing on a tatami can someone do justice to it.

3] Shibori - This tie-dye process deserves recognition on a par with the more common forms of custom dying. As a techinque, it almost defies categorization. It is used on both men's and women's clothing, and both for juban and outer kimono. Although it can never be considered for the most formal of occasions, it always seems to command more admiration because of the labor required to execute this technique. A hand-tied shibori furisode of the best quality will take nearly a year to finish!

Except for the isolated use of shibori (either in conjunction with other techniques, or alone), there is probably no way to clean a garment without ruining the texture, let alone reuse the material without disrupting the pattern. Preservation is certainly preferable to reduction, but that isn't always possible. Whether anyone would condone cutting up shibori fabric or not is moot, because I think the finsihed result will always be unsatisfactory.

As you can gather, I'm inclined to grant more leeway than the 'militants'. That statement shouldn't be interpreted to mean I'm less concerned, but rather more resigned to the inevitablility of ignorant people doing what makes sense to them (at the time), than the zealots.

[fraise]

O-hayo gozaimasu, minna-san!

I am definitely a "kimono saver", however, I am also a quilter and embroiderer! I would not buy a kimono to cut it into quilt fabric though, because as a craftswoman, I have great respect for the work that goes into creating such beautiful clothing. For example, it would sadden me if someone bought a quilt of mine to cut up! (I don't sell my quilts though, I give them to close friends and family.)

Regarding the excellent details that Kiyoaki has given (Kiyoaki like in Mishima Yukio's "Spring Snow"?   ), I would make an exception for a certain type of fabric.  Plain weaves I think I could cut into, if the kimono were very damaged (holes and stains). But katazome and yuzenzome, probably never, unless it was clear that the kimono was otherwise impossible to salvage! Most definitely I would never cut an embroidered kimono. I was breathtaken with amazement today at the embroidered uchikake, and saved all photos so I can look at them whenever I want -- they're so beautiful!! It must have taken ages to finish those uchikake, it's clear the embroidery is of high quality.

In any case if I like a kimono's fabric and it inspires me for quilting or other sewing, I simply go to my favorite fabric store and try to find something similar. I would only buy a kimono that "speaks" to me, and would do so to wear it, never cut it!

[Kiyoaki]

Dear Fraise,

I've never read Mishima's Spring Snow. It may be prosaic to admit it, but my name was given at birth, so I can't claim any creativity for its' use.  It's actually my uncle's given name as well.  Apparently, the name is traditional for the post-Meiji generations.

Kiyoaki

[fraise]

Kiyoaki,

It's interesting that you explain that, actually, because now I understand Spring Snow better -- in the book, Kiyoaki is a character who is, in fact, supposed to be representative of what was then the new post-Meiji generation.

(Sorry to go even further off topic I'll try to go back on!)

I received my March "Handmade Nuno" magazine in which there are patterns for making O-hina for the children's festival -- they use chirimen silk to make the dolls' kimonos! I wish I better understood Japanese so I could know whether or not they discuss using old kimono fabric. A question for everyone then: Would you cut up a kimono to use in making another kimono (even if much smaller)?

[Kiyoaki]

Fraise,

I need to clarify what I said in my previous reply. Although your interpretation of the character Kiyoaki in Mishima's Spring Snow, is probably correct, the name itself is not indicative of the 'new' post-Meiji man.

Like many American first names, certain ones are fashionable for a time. My grandfather emigrated to Hawaii before the end of the Meiji Era. His name (at least the one recorded by the Japanese Legation in Hawaii) was "Kara-ichi", which I don't think is a very familiar or common first name.

When his first son was born, he simply used a traditional name from the time before he left Japan, although it was already the Showa Era. I was in turn given the same name, probably out of my father's deference to his older brother, so the usage in my case was even further out of date.

I can't say why Mishima picked that name for his protagonist. Perhaps it had a symbolic meaning for him, or he just liked it. In any event, the name is somewhat dated for the time he was writing, but since it may have been familiar to him from childhood, he felt comfortable using it.

I suppose I've muddied the waters again, when I really intended to clarify a somewhat obscure point. I apologize if I have, but names have always been fascinating for me and I do tend to prattle on longer than is necessary.

As to 'down-sizing' garments, in priciple, I'd say 'yes', but that may not always be possible. The decoration may not be suitable either because of the colors, or motif, or the scale is inapropriate for the new user.

A child's kimono can often be only three panels wide. The adults is usually four. Where does the extra one go? Yes the seams can be taken in, but that also disturbs the decorative scheme. Shortening either the sleeves or the hem creates the same problem. It appears the options are much fewer than one would have expected.

Kiyoaki

[Kou Hiko]

I reciently bought a kimono that is way too short for me. I lengthened it as much as I could and it still comes to my mid-shin. It's bright orange and a very festive kosode with carts as the design. I'll probably turn it into a childrens kimono (but I won't cut it, I'll just fold the fabric inward. If it's too bulky to fold in and sew then I'll leave it as it is and use it in my kimono lessons on someone really short). I don't mind doing this because the kimono isn't in the best shape anyways (it was drycleaned by the person I bought it from and the top layer shrunk a little and the lining stayed the same size.). Besides, I always wanted a children's kimono, and I won't be cutting up a kimono.

[Kiyoaki]

Kou Shonagon,

If the kimono fits you across the shoulders and the cuffs reach down to your wrists, you could wear it 'as is' with hakama over it. You wouldn't need to alter it in the least, and the length should be great enough to be hidden by the hakama (even at the sides). That would certainly save you the trouble of changing the garment. The 'look' would be traditional for the early 1900's, and fit right in with the 'graduation' look for modern girls/women.

Kiyoaki

[Kou Hiko]

I wondered about it under hakama, but it looks terrible with the hakama I have now. The lining is so bad that I'm taking it out (I have to unsew the entire kimono). The outside fabric shrunk so badly that the lining sticks out an inch to two inches everywhere. I checked the measurements for children's kimono and the outside fabric is close to that of a child's kimono, so what I'll do is unsew it and take out the lining, resew it without lining and turn the lining into a matching underkimono. I've always wanted a children's kimono for my kimono lessons. I just bought children's zouri, and I have a soft obi to match.

[[e-mail]]

I have been collecting Kimono for over 2 years now.  I had no idea there was such a fury over cutting these up.  I love the look of a kimono, but for size reasons (they look terrible on someone with curves), I only actually wear the Haori.

I have 3 children, and my oldest has worn kimono for our Holloween for 3 years and won contests each year.  She has also developed a love for kimono.  

I must admit, though, I do take some apart because they are of value as fabric to me.  If you know anything about quilting, you know that to create a truely beautiful quilt takes hundreds of colors in some cases.  Collecting the colors takes many kimono, if that is the fabric you cherish.

I have made quilts from new fabric, but the kimono fabric is so unusual and so subtle, there is no way to get that look from modern materials.

I look at it this way: If the ones I can wear I do wear, that's great.  The rest, well, there are sooooo many out there that there should be enough for preservationists and textile junkies alike!

[fraise]

Hello Tricia!

As a fellow quilter, I concur on the need for several different colors and patterns. However, I'd like to hear more details about the type of kimono you choose to cut up vs. those you keep - for example, Kiyoaki posted an informative description of weaves and decorated goods. Earlier I said I might be able to cut into a kimono of woven fabric, but after saying that I've seen dozens of obi and kimono with gorgeous woven patterns that I'd hate to cut up! For instance:
Masterpieces of Kagaku Hosomi

Do you use fabrics with larger or smaller motifs? I find that there are only a few kimono with small enough motifs for projects like dolls and some types of quilts, and in those cases I usually can find a similar new fabric. Then again, I do generally focus on smaller projects, and have yet to make a full-size quilt. Also, call me sentimental, I just can't bring myself to cut up a kimono, so I leave them for others to buy, unless I know I'll wear it! Perhaps it's the one time in my life I can say I'm fortunate to not have many curves? ;D

It can take a while to find a similar fabric, but the fun part is in the looking, and I've come across several new fabric sources (usually international) this way. Also, have you noticed that Mr. and Mrs. Wada have started offering fabric packs? (I'm really happy about it!)

Do you have any examples of your quilts online, so we could see how you use kimono fabrics? I'd be interested in seeing it. I myself have a website for my sewing projects, but it's only in its beginning stages. (It takes a while for me to put up photos as I don't have a digital camera, and switch between black and white and color rolls of film - of course I don't take photos of my work in black and white!)
annanonui.fraise.net

[Daikan]

This is Ichiro with unskilled English!

Yes as fraise san  wrote we started to offer kimono fabric.

We cut kimonos which has prominent stains , holes or tears. We sometimes cut solid haori with good design lining which are too small for  modern Japanese.

We don't want to cut  kimono, if it is in good condition and can be worn or used as a display.

In Japan there are people who like handiwork and cut  vintage kimono in good condition. Especially they like chirimen shilk with small pattern, but we don' t want to agree the idea.

Vintage kimono are getting less,we want to remain the kimono which have good value.

[Kou Hiko]

I'm sorry, I have to go off topic to share something.

I also am curvy, yet I wear kimono wonderfully. What you do is put folded fabric or tiny pillows (I use Japanese towels) into the areas that are curved (small of back, under bust, etc.) and secure them on top of the underkimono under a date-jime (or koshihimo if you don't have one).

That's what's wonderful about kimono -- almost anyone can wear one.

I do not approve of cutting up any kimono, and this is why. Kimono are becoming less popular as clothing, dispite efforts to keep it alive. People wear easy to wear kimono because they are cheaper. A good example is the two-piece kimono which gets rid of the obi. If you go to fancy resturants in my area, the waitresses wear these instead of normal kimono. I think they look tacky. It's no longer a kimono, it's a skirt and a shirt. Because kimono are no longer convient, people who make good kimono are loosing business (this could be why kimono are so expensive (?)) and soon the art of making kimono will disappear, and wear will future generations find kimono? Museams and quilts. Only a handful of people will have kimono in their whole form because the hobby of cutting them up is growing. You see? Cutting is growing and preserving is shrinking. This is why I hate when kimono are cut up.

[[e-mail]]

The only kimono I have cut up are ones that are very dirty or have rips in them.  I go to the Texuba sale twice a year to find these kimono, as well as things for my children and I to wear.  I have also bought many books on how to wear the kimono.  Unfortunately, most are in Japanese, and I have to learn how to tie the special obi bows by looking at the pictures.

I have not yet made a quilt with the fabric I am collecting.  I am working on getting all the colors for a water color quilt.  Since I can't see spending over $40 on something to cut up (they are the good condition kimono), it takes a long time to get enough Haori, obi, and kimono material from defective pieces.  I typically don't buy already cut pieces because they are not the correct size for the cutting technique I use.  As soon as I get started, I'll start posting pictures.

Thank you all for the very informative feedback.  It is good to know the feelings of those who are more culturally attached to these items.

Sincerely,

Tricia

P.S. - I'll post a picture soon of last Holloween when my 12 year old won 1st place with her kimono.

[Kiyoaki]

Kou Shaonagon,

In large part, the extreme prices for kimono today has always reflected the labor-intensive character of the industry. Even in China, where labor cost are perceived as lower than they are in Japan, the cost of silk fabric is still relatively high by comparison with cotton and other natural fibers.

The difference stems from the degree of mechanization possible in the preparation of the fiber for weaving. Cotton, for instance is planted and harvested. Silk requires planting and harvesting mulberry leaves, then feeding insects until they mature and pupate. Already we can see, extra labor is required to produce the fiber alone. Secondly, the diameter of silk is so much finer than most others, that more length is required to attain the same weight of material as other fabrics. That translates again into greater labor and cost.

Beyond that level, lies the multiplicity of decorative techniques that are employed to execute the design. This area alone, perhaps represents the greatest expense in customizing the kimono. If mechanical methods were universally applied to decorate silk, that alone would significantly reduce the extreme cost for today's garments (although not to a point where it could ever become 'everyday wear').

Those are the obvious areas of expense. But hidden between those production steps lie layers of 'middle men', who add to the final price by virtue of serving as wholesalers and retailers. To give them their due, without these middle men, the silk industry in Japan would probably never have reached the heights it has (nor managed to sustain them for very long).

Unless we eliminate or mechanize some of these processes, the cost of the kimono will never fall. Granted, some of this cost is unneccessary in this age of global markets and the internet, but potential reductions in cost are unlikely (and bound to be insignificant) as long as custom work is the preferred standard for the kimono. In essence, the demand (and a few institutional structures), sustains the price, not scarcity.

The kimono did not evolve in response to questions of convenience. Like most forms of dress, it reflects cultural traditions first and foremost. Convenience was always a secondary consideration (far behind status, for instance). Those that attempt to modify the kimono for the sake of convenience will never succeed unless they invent a whole new tradition of dress, which erases two milllenia of Japanese history.

I don't think those that make the most of discarded kimono should be blamed for cutting and reusing old fabric. They cannot cut up a kimono that is being worn and cherished. Many of the kimono we buy, have been discarded as imperfect [i.e. stained or otherwise damaged], or 'out of fashion'. We should be grateful some people feel that way about their kimono. Where we see value, these people see impropriety and social embarassment in wearing something that is a year old or slightly flawed. If we were in their shoes, would we feel as we do now?

Whatever our reply to that question, it should not escape our notice that the 'problem' originates at the source and not at the end of the chain through which it passes. If the demand for new kimono disappeared, prices would fall significantly. If people did not discard their old kimono, this whole debate would not take place. Blaming the consumer (collector, quilter, etc.) for the 'misuse' of a product is like turning the world upside down.

Kiyoaki

[Tricia]

Kiyoaki, your post was very well put.  Thank you for relieving some of the guilt I was feeling for committing what some have compared to a sacrilege (paraphrase).  

However, I do have more respect for items that may only have slight flaws that I didn't feel before reading this board.  I guess that some people feel so strongly about the heritage of the garmet and it's cultural signifigance that there is no grey area for them.  This opinion stems out of their heart, and you cannot argue with a person's heart.  Your information about supply and demand, though, may help others see the value of the consumer in all this.  Thanks again!

[Kiyoaki]

Tricia,

If you want to hear more of the same, check out my reply today [5.8.02] under the heading 'breathing life back into old kimono'.

Basically, I feel there is room for all of us and hearing the others point of view is what makes this message board worthwhile.

Kiyoaki