Wearing underwear in public

[bawsin]

(Really, this thread is about wearing traditional Japanese clothing in unconventional ways. But this subject line will probably draw more readers! )

Here's the thing. I have a wonderful vintage men's jyuban with shi-shi motif. It's absolutely gorgeous, and because the colours are so sober, it seems ideal for outerwear. I'm thinking about using it as a coat-jacket, or maybe even wrapping it with a sash of some description (traditional or not) and attempting to wear it as a dress. Is this insane? Scandalous? Or quite reasonable?

I have to admit, one reason I haven't been very daring yet is that in my city there is a significant population of Japanese students (mainly here to learn English). For me, wearing haori in public is pretty flamboyant ... so I'm a bit shy about the prospect of being tittered at on the street by Japanese kids who know I'm wearing underwear on the outside -- men's underwear, no less!

I'd also be interested in hearing from people who have explored other non-traditional ways of wearing kimono. What are the hazards of wearing michiyuki as a dress, for example? Have you tried wearing obi as a bikini? (OK, that one is pretty unlikely, but I'm attempting to think laterally here.) Japanese clothing is so exquisite -- all of it, be it visible or hidden from view -- that I'd love to discover more ways to explore wearing it that don't necessarily involve getting fully kitted up in traditional fashion.

Julia

[Rachel]

Oh! Such scandal! Undergarments displayed in broad daylight! >faints<




hehe..

If it looks good wear it! They will probably be tittering about how beautiful the design is anyway, or how wonderful it is that someone of another ethnicity is daring enough to wear kimono. They might not even know that its actually underwear.

[Carmen]

Julia,

I can understand your reticence on publicly wearing what basically amounts to "used" men's underwear...
(but still, it's probably the worlds most luxurious underwear)

I have a really nice shi-shi juban, too, but I'm pretty tall, so I haven't attempted to wear it as a dress. The idea is intriguing, though. If you could fashion a nice sash out of some coordinating silk, I think it would make a great dress for a party...you've put a bug in my ear!

Now I'm wondering how to keep the juban from "sliding" open, as all my silky robes tend to do unless I tie the inner ties... Maybe if the sash is a little wider and a little longer, it could wrapped and tied obi-style, but without the bulk and stiffness. Or even better, tie it in a man's style... I think I'm going to experiment...

As for the reactions of passers-by, don't give it another thought. Who cares?? If you feel good in it, that's all that counts. I manage to wear haori fairly often and for the most part I just get puzzled looks (I'm in Dallas). But sometimes a discerning eye will notice and I end up making a friend!

Can you post a picture of the juban? I'd love to see it...I'm nuts for shi-shi! I'll post one of mine.

Carmen

[Kiyoaki]

Julia,

I think you needn't worry too much about what strangers will say/think. Even if you dressed with exacting propriety, you'd still get looks and tittering from both the Japanese and non-Japanese just because your dress is exotic.

As too the young Japanese __ they probably couldn't dress properly in kimono let alone tell the difference between a juban or a kosode.

Another sometime contributor to this board "Fujitsubo" does wear men's juban as outerwear (and advocates women do so). She says they work best when worn open (like a house coat?) without a belt or obi. That probably means you should wear something close fitting underneath (like slacks and a thin long-sleeve pullover).

If you wear it closed, and don't like the idea of a maru-obi, then wear hakama over them to keep the front closed. It probably makes best sense to wear a woman's hakama (no back plate) rather then the men's version (which is a bit uncomfortable because of the higher back).

For myself, I'd wear a juban with hakama, to show off the decoration, but never wear the haori inside out.

Of course I'm still waiting for the right occasion to impersonate a Buddhist abbot. I've got all the right items, but never the occasion to wear such clothing (except perhaps Halloween).

Kiyoaki

[Stephie]

Julia,

I agree with Kiyoaki in that most of the students wouldn't recognize it as a jyuban. Just stay away from the older crowds.

What about wearing it over a simple black dress? Something that doesn't distract at all from the jyuban.

How long is your michiyuki that you would consider wearing it as a dress? I am by no means tall (5' 5.5", you have to have that .5 in there ) but my bum would be hanging out of mine without bending over. So, that would be the main hazard of me wearing my michiyuki that way. ;D

[Kiku]

Hi all,

This is a topic near and dear to my heart, so I had to hurry up and register, just so I could join in the conversation.

As I mentioned once on the old/new board (this is actually Kelly, but I decided to change my handle since double "L" isn't found in the Japanese language. Plus, I love chrysanthemums.), one of my favorite outfits is a michiyuki or haori with a simple turtleneck and skirt. I wear it several times a week. But, like bawsin, I just recently got a long michiyuki coat and am tempted to wear it as a dress with a turtleneck and slip. The coat has a kind of mesh pattern in black and burgundy and I want to wear a black mesh snood and some black mesh 40s shoes with it.

(Stephanie, I'm 5'5" (okay, 5' 4-7/8") and this coat is mid-calf on me. I see them fairly often, so keep and eye out.)

Anyway, I have the same reservations about Japanese people knowing that it a coat that should be removed, technically, even before I enter a building/house. I'd feel pretty silly in my slip -- although that seems to pass as clothing with many young women these days. However, I'm going to wear it anyway. I find that instead of getting more attention when I wear Japanese clothes, I get less than in some of my more flamboyant vintage, I think because people can't even figure me out enough to make some stupid comment.

Glad to see this board getting active again. I was going through withdrawal since the other board died.

Cheers,
Kiku/Kelly

[bawsin]

Carmen, you have some good ideas! I'll have to see if I can find a simple brown or black silk sash that will work as a belt with the jyuban. (Incidentally, how do I post a picture here? I'd love to include a picture of the shi-shi jyuban, but I've no idea how to actually do it.)

Rachel and Kiyoaki: Thank you for your encouragement. I will simply have to be brave and start wearing these beautiful garments! And Kiyoaki is right, the jyuban would make a good beltless overcoat, too.

Kiyoaki, I am intrigued by your suggestion that I wear women's hakama. I have been learning about/buying wafuku for only 3 months, so I didn't even know there was such a thing as hakama for women! Where do you find them?

Stephie, I am 5'3¾". If I stand very straight, inhale, and practise Big Hair, I am arguably 5'4"

Anyway, Kiku is right: while some michiyuki are short, others are practically full-length coats. One of my michiyuki is a boggling 42" long! It comes to below the knees, almost to mid-calf on me. Because it's also somewhat wide, I find that it looks better (in its incarnation as a dress) when worn with a belt ... which brings it up to knee-level. I have another michiyuki that's a shade over 40", but because it's slimmer and tapers towards the hem, it doesn't really need a belt. My third michiyuki comes to just above the knee, but as you say, you'd need to be careful about bending over! That one is probably safer to reserve for the trousers-and-turtleneck combo.

The thing about wearing michiyuki as a dress is that the neckline, shall we say, permits rather more cleavage than I'm comfortable displaying I bought a couple of black "tank top"-style teddies to wear underneath, and they work quite well.

Kiku/Kelly, if you ever wear your michiyuki as a dress, with snood and mesh shoes, I hope you can post a picture some time! It sounds smashing. Ditto to Kiyoaki ... it would be amazing to see a photo of you togged out as a Buddhist monk!

Julia

[Kiyoaki]

Julia,

There is a topic further down the list entittled "Graduation kimono and hakama". In the second reply by Kou Hiko, there is a link to a Japanese retailer that sells women's graduation hakama so you can view some.

You may be interested to read all the replies as well. There are a number of topics and choices to be considered before deciding the issue. Overall, I think the idea of a woman wearing hakama is comparable to her wearing a tuxedo to a formal occasion. It certainly doesn't make sense to wear hakama over a maru obi either.

Kiyoaki

[Kiki]

I agree with everyone else here....try wearing it out...it won't hurt to try, and most people won't even know its actually underwear. Besides, americans started wearing that fad a few years ago of wearing slips out and such....and the stuff they were wearing is nowhere near as beautiful, or as covering, as these jubans.


as for long michiyuki and haori...they do exsit. I tried on one at a convention, and it came down mid-calf on me...and I'm 5'9". I just bought a 1940's haori, and it too is longish....with beautiful long sleeves.

[Heather]

I had a question about juban. I'm pretty new to the kimono stuff but can a girl wear a guy's juban? I've noticed that the men's jubans are usually bigger and darker colored. A lot of them seem to have dark collars as well, while the women's I have only ever seen white collars. I was just curious if there is a rule on this, with traditional Japanese dress. Thanks!

[fraise]

Heather - If you're going for a traditional/proper look, I'm afraid cross-dressing ( ) is out of the question. If you want to wear a man's juban in a new way, though, then of course you're free to do as you wish!

The collars you may be seeing on many women's juban are often the "bare" collar - starched cotton that gives stiffness and support to the han eri (removable/replacable collar put on a juban). There are only a few used juban sold with han eri still on them. White han eri can be worn with all kimono; formal kimono (tsukesage, houmongi, iromuji, Edo komon, irotomesode, kurotomesode and furisode) should always be worn with a white han eri. That said, in modern times furisode are starting to be worn with all sorts of differently-colored han eri to make for dramatic looks. They usually have embroidered designs on them, though, which automatically makes them quite formal.

Less formal women's kimono such as tsumugi and komon can be worn with colored and patterned han eri. So you can take a long scrap of fabric and stitch it on to make your own collar

Currently women rarely wear dark-colored, unpatterned han eri of the type you find on men's kimono. Those sober collars seem to be reserved for men.

[Stephie]

Here is a thought concerning just the color of the collar. You could always consider basting on a standard womans han eri to cover the dark collar on the jyuban. Then on the same note, depending on how far you are wanting to go, you could also baste material to the sleeve area that may also show.

[Heather]

I didn't quite mean cross-dressing... But thanks for the info and the sewing ideas. Thinking about it now, the kimono I own (sadly, the only one) would look better with a white collar. It will also look better if I wear a black haori over it! Thanks!

[Flock]

well the kimono as we know it today developed from an underrobe.. just like dresses in the early 20th century developed from lounging robes.. and the yukata is just a bathrobe but has become acceptable as something to wear out.. Break out of the iron cage, do what you like if it looks good.. the only problem I'd have with that is I'm slightly self concious and I wouldn't want japanese people to think I was a stupid foreigner because I have a good knowledge of kimono and its wearing !!!!!