Re: Visitor Log

[Meiji]

So I can actually save the hassle of making a thread and ask any questions here?


Okay, be prepared to be slandered with questions, as I'm new to the whole kimono thing and I'm really interested in the subject itself. Yes, I'm a first-time member here, I found this site somehow when I was looking for kimonos and the selection here was fairly impressive. For the record, I'm not American, I'm a Chinese-Canadian but obviously, I'm deeply interested in the culture and history of Japan. I have been to Japan once, in the summer of 2002 and I do plan on going again this summer, for about three weeks, hopefully........


Questions:


- How much is the ideal cost of the full kimono set for a guy? (Brand-new and used)

- Why is it that it is preferred to use black or darker colours?

- Finally, does anybody know a good place as to where I can find kimonos in Japan itself?


Thank you for your help, if possible. Arigato gozaimasu.

[chiiyo]

Actually I'm not very sure what Kiyoaki-san meant, but the Glossary tends to include more specific terms, like the meaning of a certain word or phrase commonly used when describing a fabric or a type of kimono, not really general questions. For general questions, you would probably get more answers when you start a new thread.

But anyway, maybe Daikan would move it out to a new thread when he gets back. Before that happens, I'll try and answer your question.

Kiyoaki-san would be more of the expert on this, but the ideal cost of a male kimono full set (I'm assuming kimono, hakama, haori, juban ++) is quite expensive... Ichiroya has a set made out of polyester listed here, and it already costs $1350. It says in their description that if they made one out of silk it would cost around $5000. This is for brand new sets. As for used sets, naturally it would be cheaper, but I think there would also be some difficulty finding a "set", you'll probably fare better finding the pieces separately. If so, the cost would probably vary. It would also vary according to what kind of quality you want in your set.

Of course, just to mention a point, the aforementioned $5000 is still cheaper than some of the brand new furisodes I've seen.

I'm not very sure why, but kimonos for males tend to be of more somber colours to impress on others their... sombriety? seriousness? Everything in kimono has a meaning, the fact that female kimonos are often much more colourful and brighter when they are for a younger audience and then progressively more somber and serious when it gets to older women perhaps indicates that men are supposed to be more somber... in all ages. This of course have led some of the male members of this board to lament and think of different ways to wear kimono and experiment on different colour combinations.

Of course, if you're referring to the full kimono set, the reason why darker colours are used is probably because black is the most formal colour for males and for married females. The full kimono set is probably only worn in the most formal of occasions, and so the colour of it would tend towards the more somber and formal.

Good place to find kimonos... *grin* If I ever go to Osaka, I'll seek out Ichiro-san! Anyway, I'm assuming you would want new kimonos... I believe a lot of the big departmental stores in Japan would sell kimonos, but I'm not sure of their range and whether they sell male kimono or not. Around Japan there would also be small shops selling kimono, but they would tend to be more expensive than the departmental stores, and might carry better quality goods.

If you want used kimono, the net is better than any other place. Or you could try going to one of those kimono fairs I hear so much about...

Sorry, not much help, I'm not very well-versed in male kimono... *heh heh*

[Kiyoaki]

Meiji,

It's always good to hear from new people (even when they ask basic questions ;D). To answer your question properly, we need to sort out some of your assumptions first.

To start, the idea of a set (by which I assume you mean kimono, obi, and haori) isn't necessarily a must for all Japanese. Sets as such, are more often than not intended for formal wear, so by tradition, they're very sober and conservative in their color. If you're aiming for the most formal look, a black kimono and haori (with 5 crests each) plus a pair of striped hakama (in a complimentary color) __ is the ultimate. The same outfit in midnight blue might be a bit less formal, but lighter blues and browns definitely tend toward the informal end of the spectrum. All of that talk of color choices aside, the ready-made sets are the most expensive [because of the long merchandising chain they pass through].

The next least expensive option is to select your own fabric and have it sewn to measure. The material can cost a few hundred (USD) and the custom sewing will run about the same. Ichiroya offers this service and you can also purchase bolts of silk from them. This is the tradtional way of getting one made. Altogether an average silk kimono can cost several hundred by itself and the haori itself, an additional $200 (depending upon the quality of the lining.

If your needs are more general or you want something more to wear for a wide range of social situations, you could throw out both of those approaches and look for second-hand items. Now, before you reject the idea of "used" clothing, it's possible to find either unused or completely laundered items for a fraction of cost custom-made would command. This way, you can buy what suits you and build up a wardrobe that's appropriate for many situations.

If you want to buy them directly in Japan, your best best is the temple flea markets. A number of them are scheduled monthly or semi-monthly. You need to know 'where' they're held in order to find out the 'when' because not every temple does so. However, your likelihood of pulling together a complete outfit (that fits) is very small.

In general, the more time you invest in this project, the less it will cost. If you are patient, time can reward you.

Kiyoaki

Should you decide to follow the latter route, there are two essential things you need to keep in mind. First, the cuffs of the kimono should reach your wrists when your arms are raised level with the shoulders. The same applies to the haori. Second, the hakama should reach from the waist to the ankles. Other than that, the length of the obi is fixed (just like a necktie). You'll also need to learn how to shorten it up when you tie it (again, like a necktie).

On the question of color, there isn't a lot that's allowed (if you don't want tongues to wag). Younger men can wear lighter shades of blue, brown, and green. But also realize that as one gets older, any of those youthful purchases will tend to lie idle. In my twenties, I once wore an outfit that was a fresh bamboo green with yellow highlights. Nowadays, I'd look ridiculous wearing the same kimono. The same would happen to you.

Kiyoaki

[Meiji]

So it does vary eh?


For the record, I'm only looking for kimono in Japan itself and while I would like a more formal looking one, I wouldn't mind one for general usage too much. What I'm really looking for is a decent-looking kimono for an alright price. Somewhere around the range of 500-700 dollars (CDN) total.


But I've heard that department stores sometimes have decent kimono for a good price. I know a few flea market fairs that occur in Japan, such as the one around Toji temple in Kyoto held on the 1st Sunday of every month, supposedly. What are the odds of me finding a good kimono set (haori, Hakama, kimono) for my price range in Japan? Oh and another question, what is a Juban?


As for colours, I'm mainly looking for something of a navy dark blue scheme or just plain black, etc.


Thanks anyways, it is kind of hard to narrow it down but online research always helps. Oh and just out of curiosity, has anyone bought a kimono in Japan before? If so, how is the quality?

[Kiyoaki]

Meiji,

I think the answer to your question concerning the difficulty of finding a suitable set has more to do with your size than where you look. If you're tall (5' 8" or more) or have long arms (say over 25" sleeve size), then the odds are against you. In that circumstance, 'custom-made' is the better option. The shorter your height, the greater your likelihood of finding the right thing (because the supply of ready-made items will be greater).

Generally, unlined (hitoe) garments are less expensive than lined ones (less silk by weight and less sewing). But a lined kimono could eliminate the need for the juban (or even a hada-juban itself).

Regarding quality, you should look or ask for 'habutae'. It's a satin weave that will have a surface sheen but not the high shine of a plain basket weave. But regardless of the weave itself, there should be some stiffness or body to the fabric, which should indicate a medium to heavy weight fabric.

A second choice could be 'oshima-tsumugi'. This fabric is appropriate for semi-formal or informal occasions and will probably outwear you. This cloth has a reputation for lasting more than one lifetime and the patterns are so conservative they never go out of style. Even if you find one in black, don't hesitate. Oshima-tsumugi is a special case because the color is achieved without the use of a strong mordant. [See the 'P.S.' below.]

'Chirimen' (crepe) is also a good choice because it drapes well and doesn't wrinkle easily. Again, look for a dense weave to insure it will be long wearing and hold up to actual use.

As to the 'juban' __ it's an under kimono, which is missing the two overlapping front lapels (half panels). Juban can be well decorated, but they are covered by the kimono proper so only the contrasting collar will show. Beneath this under-kimono (next to the skin), you have the option of wearing a cotton half-juban. It will absorb light perspiration and body oils so they don't permanently stain the silk. Either can be worn for warmth and/or to reduce the frequency of cleaning.

Incidentally, once you leave Japan, you risk ruining your kimono by having it conventinally dry cleaned in solvent. So the hada-juban and full-length juban are both worth wearing. Traditionally, kimono are taken apart (unsewn) before the pieces are washed. Then they are reassembled. This is done because separate panels may shrink at different rates and cause puckering in the seams or make it hang uneven when worn. Pehaps you can find someone in your area that can properly disassemble and clean a kimono.

I know the cleaning sounds like a bother, but in all fairness, you need to be aware of these circumstances before making your best selection. I could go on, but you have a lot to think over, so I won't add more to your plate.

Kiyoaki

P.S. Regarding color, indigo is a good first choice. The best dying jobs will be taken for black unless you're simultaneously wearing something else that is truly black. Indigo also has the reputation of staving off damage from insects, but since undyed silk doesn't suffer from insect attacks anyway, the point is moot.

At the same time, while black is more commonly available, the mordant used to set the ferrous compounds for the best blacks will eventually breakdown the protein of the silk. However, you needn't worry wether this will happen anytime soon if the garment you buy is less than 50 years old.

[Meiji]

Well..... I'm about 5'6" or 5'7".


Thanks for all your help and advice, I shall keep that into consideration. I guess the odds are a bit better now that I don't exceed 5'7".


As for cleaning, I've heard it is a big hassle and troublesome but I'll concentrate on finding a good kimono at a good buy first of all. So depending on the lining and such, I don't need a juban or other under-garments. In that case, it's down to either a flea market or maybe department stores?


That post was of great help and quite informative.

[Sarahchan]

Konnichawa Minna-san!

. . . And that's about half of the Japanese I know. . .

I'm a new poster, but I've had a lot of fun reading messages from both this board and the old-new one for a while. I think all the information here is really great, and the chance to talk to other people who don't think it's weird to love kimono!

All of the information in this post on men's kimono is especially helpful, since most information out there is about women's kimono. The only thing I would add is that it is probably a good idea to wear a juban with any kimono to protect it. Most Juban have replaceable/washable collars that will prevent the actual kimono collar from being stained. For synthetic underkimono, if the juban gets dirty from sweat and skin oils it can be much easier to clean than the kimono itself. And in men's clothes for summer, there is always the very casual (but very comfortable!) yukata, samue and jinbei.

A question about fukuro obi: some of the ones I have (the very formal ones) do seem to be pretty stiff, and others do not appear to have any stiffiners inside. None of them appear to have been taken apart. . . Do they all need the stiffeners to be wearable, or are they ok to use as long as they are worn with obi-ita?

Thanks!!

=Sarahchan

[sg715]

I am new here. I think this is a great board, and I've lurked here for a few days. I'm so glad to find people who love kimono and Japanese culture as much as I do

[Haruko]

Here's a question... What is the difference between a kimono and a juban? Is a juban basically a plainer and unlined kimono? If I have an unlined kimono, can I wear it as a juban? Does one really need the stiff collar of a juban?

I guess that was more than "a" question... ;D

[Meiji]

I've heard that a Juban is like an undergarment for a kimono........


Most of the time, it's better to have one but it depends on whether or not the kimono is unlined or not and on that nature of the kimono set, as well.


I'm not certain if it is essential though, but I'm guessing that most kimonos are better if you do have a matching juban to boot.

[fraise]

Yes, a juban is an undergarment for kimono If you want a proper look, juban should be worn under all kimono except yukata.

Women really do need the stiff collar of a juban when wearing kimono, otherwise it's nearly impossible to get the right curve at the nape. Even with a juban collar sometimes it doesn't work, that's why you see "eri shin", collar stiffeners. They're put inside the han eri (juban collar) for reinforcement.

mypage.odn.ne.jp/home/mamechiyo
If you click on "Mamechiyo's kimono life" you'll see some photos where the back neck line shows well.

[sg715]

Haruko said:

If I have an unlined kimono, can I wear it as a juban?

Juban are gernerally lighter and always shorter than kimono- they are meant to be short enough that you don't have to fold them over in the middle to get them at the correct length. So, I wouldn't wear a hitoe (unlined) kimono as a juban.

However, it was once fashionable to wear serveral layers of hitoe kimono on top of one another. But you'll still need a juban

[Haruko]

Ok, thanks! Is that what Geishas do in a way? Wear lots of layers of hitoe? I've seen some wonderful pictures and they seem to be wearing lots of clothes! Beautiful, though!

[Kiyoaki]

To All:

Generically speaking, a juban is an under kimono. However, a true juban is missing the two half panels in front. The collar line falls vertically like that of the haori; not diagonally as on a kosode. If you wore a juban alone, the collar/lapel would probably cross at your waist; not across the chest. That's why the juban could never substitute for a full kimono.

Juban are largely unlined, but many full kimono can also be made without a lining (especially for summer wear). The juban can also be shorter than the outer kimono, without it showing. The lack of overlapping panels and a shorter length both help ease walking. If you wore an outer kimono as a juban, the double layer of overlapping front panels would almost hobble you. The lining is more for warmth than anything else.

I hope this clears the air somewhat.

Kiyoaki

[fraise]

The collar line falls vertically like that of the haori; not diagonally as on a kosode. If you wore a juban alone, the collar/lapel would probably cross at your waist; not across the chest.

Actually, if you look at photos of people wearing kimono, you'll notice that the juban collar is higher up on the chest than the kimono collar, not lower. Otherwise it wouldn't show. Because of the lack of half-panels, a juban collar is simply shorter than a kimono collar, not angled differently. That said, to make a juban collar angle properly, the juban usually has to be pulled up ("bloused") a bit at the waist. This is also one of the reasons kimono are folded at the waist - it gives some leeway for adjusting the collar angle. Some nagajuban for women, such as those for kurotomesode and furisode, do have to be folded at the waist like a kimono to make them the proper length. The extra fabric caused by blousing/folding at the waist is in fact helpful, as it pads out the waist and gives a more cylindrical finished look.

Haruko: From what I've read in my kitsuke books, maiko (whose "juban" hem shows) don't wear a nagajuban (long one-piece juban) but a hadajuban (half juban) with patterned sleeves and a susoyoke. The susoyoke is the brightly-colored, usually red, skirt that can be seen under their furisode. It looks like a kimono, but is basically just a wrap-around skirt. It is a really beautiful look

[Ume]

Hi all!

I am kind of a new old member too, I missed the board and hope I can read the faq's section too soon, a lot of topics have been "moved" and seem to have been lost now. (?)

On juban, it is possible to wear a kimono as nagajuban, the only thing is it should be shorter not too heavy and you will need to put a han eri on to insert the eri shin. In older days it was not uncommon to change a kimono that was not good enough any more into a nagajuban.
If you want to wear kimono properly you only can wear hitoe in late spring, (summer requires ro or sha) and early fall also as a juban the rest of the year you need to wear awase.

So geisha only wear (most of the time) two layers of hitoe in spring and autumn time, the rest of the year they would wear two layers of awase. Also, two layers are only for formal occasions (think of the kuro tomesode with two layers), otherwise they will only wear one layer, like all the women wearing kimono and a nagajuban is always necessary (as Fraise said to create a better kimono line and a nice nape)
And the juban does actualy completely overlap, otherwise it would not be "proper" for walking this is no problem because you need to take small steps in kimono.

[fraise]

There's a website with photographed kitsuke directions for maiko and geisha
www.palette532.com/~inui/sirotae/j07/maiko/m00.html
(maiko, use the forward arrow to view)

www.palette532.com/~inui/sirotae/j07/geisya/g00.html
(geisha's obi musubi, here an otaiko done with a hakata weave fukuro obi, looks to be for summer)